Democrats

[Jaime]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:53 PM']That's weird.  She got back to me right away. 
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Really? That is weird

[photosynthesis]

Neither the Democratic nor the Republican parties fully represent the interests of Catholics, and so I am very wary of aligning myself with a party that does not fully represent my interests.

The Democrats officially support abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research, which goes against my beliefs. But I do also believe that we need to protect our environment, we need to help the poor and the sick, and we need better public schools. I have yet to meet a public school teacher or administrator or professor of Education who likes No Child Left Behind and thinks it works.

The Republicans are against Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage... But they also way too libertarian on issues like gun control, and they support the death penalty, which is completely unnecessary in America. Our prison system is secure enough to keep violent felons out of society without killing them. Not all republicans are "compassionate conservatives" like Bush,and a lot of them are generally apathetic about the poor and the sick.

There are some pro-life Democrats out there (although they're hard to find) and a LOT of pro-abortion Republicans.... some of them, like Bush, are pro-life but not all the way. There are a lot of republicans, like Arnold Schwarzanneger, who are really libertarians, but don't want to call themselves libertarians because no one respects libertarians

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 22 2005, 03:34 PM']Neither the Democratic nor the Republican parties fully represent the interests of Catholics, and so I am very wary of aligning myself with a party that does not fully represent my interests.

The Democrats officially support abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research, which goes against my beliefs.  But I do also believe that we need to protect our environment, we need to help the poor and the sick, and we need better public schools.  I have yet to meet a public school teacher or administrator or professor of Education who likes No Child Left Behind and thinks it works.

The Republicans are against Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage...  But they also way too libertarian on issues like gun control, and they support the death penalty, which is completely unnecessary in America.  Our prison system is secure enough to keep violent felons out of society without killing them.  Not all republicans are "compassionate conservatives" like Bush,and a lot of them are generally apathetic about the poor and the sick.

There are some pro-life Democrats out there (although they're hard to find) and a LOT of pro-abortion Republicans....  some of them, like Bush, are pro-life but not all the way.  There are a lot of republicans, like Arnold Schwarzanneger, who are really libertarians, but don't want to call themselves libertarians because no one respects libertarians
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While you're entitled to your opinion, I disagree with you that to be a good Catholic, one must take a position closer to the Democrats' on the positions you list.

I'm not a libertarian myself, but agree with them on many issues, beleiving government to have grown way beyond its legitimate (and constitutional) bounds under both the Democrats and Republicans.

I beleive the socialistic welfare-state tax and spend solutions of liberals to be ineffective and disasterous to society at large. I do not see supporting the further growth of federal government beauracracy (and the growing dependence thereon) as a requirement of Catholic charity. I beleive in the long run, the welfare state hurts the poor and all of society.
And I know many very charitable and unapathetic people, who do not support higher taxes and fed government programs as the solution to these problems.

I am completely against gun control and fully support the constitutional right of citizens to bear arms. This is not in conflict with the Catholic Faith, which teaches that people have a right to defend themselves. You act like opposition to gun control is support of murder.

And to claim the Republicans are anti-Catholic for supporting the death penaltly is to call all of Christendom throughout most of its history, and the Church herself anti-Catholic.

[photosynthesis]

Socrates, maybe you should read my post more clearly. I did not suggest that in order to be a good Catholic, you must be left-leaning. That's nowhere in my post.

I simply said that neither party rully represents the interest of Catholics. And doesn't the Church teach that the death penalty is only OK if the prison system is not adequate enough to keep criminals out of society?

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 22 2005, 04:03 PM']Socrates, maybe you should read my post more clearly.  I did not suggest that in order to be a good Catholic, you must be left-leaning.  That's nowhere in my post.

I simply said that neither party rully represents the interest of Catholics.  And doesn't the Church teach that the death penalty is only OK if the prison system is not adequate enough to keep criminals out of society?
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You implied that the "liberal" positions on the issues you mentioned were more in line with Catholicism.

And your statement about the death penalty is not definitive Cahtolic teaching, but a prudential opinion of the late Pope John Paul II. He was stating his opinion, not defining a dogma. He himself said the death penalty is not intrinsically wrong, but beleived it to be unnecessary in today's society. Many liberals twist this to state that the Church teaches the death penalty to be wrong in the same way it teaches on abortion.

For centuries, the Church taught that it was perfectly moral and just for the state to execute criminals. This was the practice of Catholic governments throughout the middle ages and beyond, and had the full approval of the Catholic Church (without any consideration about the adequacy of the prisons). Study history.

Edited July 22, 2005 by Socrates

[Apotheoun]

Socrates,

I took Photosynthesis' comments as a reference to Bush's support for abortion in some cases (rape and incest). I didn't see it as denial of the right of the State to execute a criminal.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 04:17 PM']Socrates,

I took Photosynthesis' comments as a reference to Bush's support for abortion in some cases (rape and incest).  I didn't see it as denial of the right of the State to execute a criminal.
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Her own words:
[quote]And doesn't the Church teach that the death penalty is only OK if the prison system is not adequate enough to keep criminals out of society? [/quote]

[quote]The Republicans are against Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage...  But they also way too libertarian on issues like gun control, and they support the death penalty, which is completely unnecessary in America.  Our prison system is secure enough to keep violent felons out of society without killing them.  Not all republicans are "compassionate conservatives" like Bush,and a lot of them are generally apathetic about the poor and the sick.[/quote]

This is about issues other than supporting abortion in cases of rape and incest (which is not mentioned).

[Apotheoun]

Thanks for the clarification Socrates.

On this issue I agree with you. The death penalty is morally licit, and the right of the State to execute a criminal remains uneffected by the views of Pope John Paul II.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:14 PM']You implied that the "liberal" positions on the issues you mentioned were more in line with Catholicism.[right][snapback]654792[/snapback][/right]
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It's ok to believe that I was implying that liberal positions were morein line with Catholicicism, but that's not what I actually said, and not what I really think. I believe both parties are misguided, and I don't like the two-party system in general.

I know of a lot more prominent Republicans that are pro-abortion/stem cell research/gay marriage/etc than I know Democrats who are pro-life. And I'm not talking about my Democrat neighbors down the street or my Republican hairdresser, I'm talking about congressmen, senators and governors. That doesn't mean that the democrats are better, I just think that they tend to agree with their party's official platform a lot more than Republicans do. I'm not saying they're better or worse, just stating something I've percieved.

Democrats like better music than Republicans. I was at the Republican National Convention as a CBS News Intern and their music was insufferable, at least compared to the DNC music. They had U2 and Springsteen and the RNC had the Third Day (and they didn't even sing any of their [i]good [/i]songs and all this country music). I mean, i guess it's fine if you really like country.

I wasn't arguing that the Church teaches that the death penalty is morally wrong in the same way as abortion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that nations have the right to use the death penalty and I'm not going to challenge that (or anything that the Magisterium says) but the CCC also says,

"If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person." (CCC 2267)

The U.S. has such "bloodless means" and personally I think that we should stick to them. It's not as important as abortion, but it's still important.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:25 PM']Her own words:
This is about issues other than supporting abortion in cases of rape and incest (which is not mentioned).
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That's actually not what I was getting at. I was, like Apotheoun said, referring to Bush's approval of abortion under certain circumstances. However, I do disagree with him about the death penalty. I still voted for him though.

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:36 PM']It's ok to believe that I was implying that liberal positions were morein line with Catholicicism, but that's not what I actually said, and not what I really think.  I believe both parties are misguided, and I don't like the two-party system in general.
[/quote]

The following quote seems to imply you think the liberal Democrat approach to spending on public schools, taxation/welfare, environmental laws, and gun control is better:

[quote]But I do also believe that we need to protect our environment, we need to help the poor and the sick, and we need better public schools. I have yet to meet a public school teacher or administrator or professor of Education who likes No Child Left Behind and thinks it works.

The Republicans are against Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage... But they also way too libertarian on issues like gun control, and they support the death penalty, which is completely unnecessary in America. Our prison system is secure enough to keep violent felons out of society without killing them. Not all republicans are "compassionate conservatives" like Bush,and a lot of them are generally apathetic about the poor and the sick.[/quote]

[quote]Democrats like better music than Republicans.  I was at the Republican National Convention as a CBS News Intern and their music was insufferable, at least compared to the DNC music.  They had U2 and Springsteen and the RNC had the Third Day (and they didn't even sing any of their [i]good [/i]songs and all this country music).  I mean, i guess it's fine if you really like country.
[/quote]
A compelling moral argument.

Geez, such a blue-stater!

[Paladin D]

If I remember correctly, the RNC had more viewers than the DNC, but this is beside the point.


I don't enjoy seeing [b]orthodox[/b] Catholics (which we're all against the five non-negotiables) bickering about political parties. Let's keep this chartiable everyone, [b]immediately.[/b]

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 08:54 PM']The following quote  seems to imply you think the liberal Democrat approach to spending on public schools, taxation/welfare, environmental laws, and gun control is better:
A compelling moral argument. 

Geez, such a blue-stater! 
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I do think that the Democratic approach to education, taxation/welfare, the environment and to some extent gun control, is better.

and in regards to the music, obviously it's not a moral argument. just something I noticed about the two conventions. Also, the Republicans gave out really awesome goodie bags to journalists at their convention, vs. the democrats' lame gifts. I still carry around my RNC messenger bag, even though wearing it around my campus would get me shot....if people here were pro-gun control The DNC obviously has better connections with celebrities and rock stars, since that's how it gets its funding, but at the RNC I got to meet a decent amount of celebrities, and I got to go party with the Bush twins, who were a lot more fun to hang out with than the Kerry kids would have been.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 08:54 PM']Geez, such a blue-stater! 
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well, i've never lived in a red state, so i guess that would be correct. JFK is still really big around here, and I'm talking about Kennedy, not Kerry.

[Jaime]

Just to clarify I don't think the starting of this thread is to suggest that being a democrat is better than being a republican. There isn't a person who's posted that would defend the democratic stance on abortion or euthenasia. These are plagues upon society and need to be dealt with. I've stated, along with others, that while we are "democratically inclined" we would never vote for a prochoice candidate.

That being said, it is important to recognize that (as with the Republican party) there are beliefs within the democratic party that very much fall in line with Catholic social teachings. Its important to recognize that resonating with these beliefs does not make one a bad Catholic.

I agree with Photosynthesis that neither party is ideally connected with the teachings of the Church.

Since the topic of gun control has entered the debate, where does one find justification within Church teachings that would suggest that gun control is wrong?