Democrats

[Apotheoun]

Socrates,

I took Photosynthesis' comments as a reference to Bush's support for abortion in some cases (rape and incest). I didn't see it as denial of the right of the State to execute a criminal.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 04:17 PM']Socrates,

I took Photosynthesis' comments as a reference to Bush's support for abortion in some cases (rape and incest).  I didn't see it as denial of the right of the State to execute a criminal.
[right][snapback]654799[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Her own words:
[quote]And doesn't the Church teach that the death penalty is only OK if the prison system is not adequate enough to keep criminals out of society? [/quote]

[quote]The Republicans are against Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage...  But they also way too libertarian on issues like gun control, and they support the death penalty, which is completely unnecessary in America.  Our prison system is secure enough to keep violent felons out of society without killing them.  Not all republicans are "compassionate conservatives" like Bush,and a lot of them are generally apathetic about the poor and the sick.[/quote]

This is about issues other than supporting abortion in cases of rape and incest (which is not mentioned).

[Apotheoun]

Thanks for the clarification Socrates.

On this issue I agree with you. The death penalty is morally licit, and the right of the State to execute a criminal remains uneffected by the views of Pope John Paul II.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:14 PM']You implied that the "liberal" positions on the issues you mentioned were more in line with Catholicism.[right][snapback]654792[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

It's ok to believe that I was implying that liberal positions were morein line with Catholicicism, but that's not what I actually said, and not what I really think. I believe both parties are misguided, and I don't like the two-party system in general.

I know of a lot more prominent Republicans that are pro-abortion/stem cell research/gay marriage/etc than I know Democrats who are pro-life. And I'm not talking about my Democrat neighbors down the street or my Republican hairdresser, I'm talking about congressmen, senators and governors. That doesn't mean that the democrats are better, I just think that they tend to agree with their party's official platform a lot more than Republicans do. I'm not saying they're better or worse, just stating something I've percieved.

Democrats like better music than Republicans. I was at the Republican National Convention as a CBS News Intern and their music was insufferable, at least compared to the DNC music. They had U2 and Springsteen and the RNC had the Third Day (and they didn't even sing any of their [i]good [/i]songs and all this country music). I mean, i guess it's fine if you really like country.

I wasn't arguing that the Church teaches that the death penalty is morally wrong in the same way as abortion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that nations have the right to use the death penalty and I'm not going to challenge that (or anything that the Magisterium says) but the CCC also says,

"If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person." (CCC 2267)

The U.S. has such "bloodless means" and personally I think that we should stick to them. It's not as important as abortion, but it's still important.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:25 PM']Her own words:
This is about issues other than supporting abortion in cases of rape and incest (which is not mentioned).
[right][snapback]654820[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
That's actually not what I was getting at. I was, like Apotheoun said, referring to Bush's approval of abortion under certain circumstances. However, I do disagree with him about the death penalty. I still voted for him though.

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:36 PM']It's ok to believe that I was implying that liberal positions were morein line with Catholicicism, but that's not what I actually said, and not what I really think.  I believe both parties are misguided, and I don't like the two-party system in general.
[/quote]

The following quote seems to imply you think the liberal Democrat approach to spending on public schools, taxation/welfare, environmental laws, and gun control is better:

[quote]But I do also believe that we need to protect our environment, we need to help the poor and the sick, and we need better public schools. I have yet to meet a public school teacher or administrator or professor of Education who likes No Child Left Behind and thinks it works.

The Republicans are against Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage... But they also way too libertarian on issues like gun control, and they support the death penalty, which is completely unnecessary in America. Our prison system is secure enough to keep violent felons out of society without killing them. Not all republicans are "compassionate conservatives" like Bush,and a lot of them are generally apathetic about the poor and the sick.[/quote]

[quote]Democrats like better music than Republicans.  I was at the Republican National Convention as a CBS News Intern and their music was insufferable, at least compared to the DNC music.  They had U2 and Springsteen and the RNC had the Third Day (and they didn't even sing any of their [i]good [/i]songs and all this country music).  I mean, i guess it's fine if you really like country.
[/quote]
A compelling moral argument.

Geez, such a blue-stater!

[Paladin D]

If I remember correctly, the RNC had more viewers than the DNC, but this is beside the point.


I don't enjoy seeing [b]orthodox[/b] Catholics (which we're all against the five non-negotiables) bickering about political parties. Let's keep this chartiable everyone, [b]immediately.[/b]

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 08:54 PM']The following quote  seems to imply you think the liberal Democrat approach to spending on public schools, taxation/welfare, environmental laws, and gun control is better:
A compelling moral argument. 

Geez, such a blue-stater! 
[right][snapback]655056[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I do think that the Democratic approach to education, taxation/welfare, the environment and to some extent gun control, is better.

and in regards to the music, obviously it's not a moral argument. just something I noticed about the two conventions. Also, the Republicans gave out really awesome goodie bags to journalists at their convention, vs. the democrats' lame gifts. I still carry around my RNC messenger bag, even though wearing it around my campus would get me shot....if people here were pro-gun control The DNC obviously has better connections with celebrities and rock stars, since that's how it gets its funding, but at the RNC I got to meet a decent amount of celebrities, and I got to go party with the Bush twins, who were a lot more fun to hang out with than the Kerry kids would have been.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 22 2005, 08:54 PM']Geez, such a blue-stater! 
[right][snapback]655056[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
well, i've never lived in a red state, so i guess that would be correct. JFK is still really big around here, and I'm talking about Kennedy, not Kerry.

[Jaime]

Just to clarify I don't think the starting of this thread is to suggest that being a democrat is better than being a republican. There isn't a person who's posted that would defend the democratic stance on abortion or euthenasia. These are plagues upon society and need to be dealt with. I've stated, along with others, that while we are "democratically inclined" we would never vote for a prochoice candidate.

That being said, it is important to recognize that (as with the Republican party) there are beliefs within the democratic party that very much fall in line with Catholic social teachings. Its important to recognize that resonating with these beliefs does not make one a bad Catholic.

I agree with Photosynthesis that neither party is ideally connected with the teachings of the Church.

Since the topic of gun control has entered the debate, where does one find justification within Church teachings that would suggest that gun control is wrong?

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 22 2005, 07:22 PM']I do think that the Democratic approach to education, taxation/welfare, the environment and to some extent gun control, is better.

and in regards to the music, obviously it's not a moral argument.  just something I noticed about the two conventions.  Also, the Republicans gave out really awesome goodie bags to journalists at their convention, vs. the democrats' lame gifts.  I still carry around my RNC messenger bag, even though wearing it around my campus would get me shot....if people here were pro-gun control   The DNC obviously has better connections with celebrities and rock stars, since that's how it gets its funding, but at the RNC I got to meet a decent amount of celebrities, and I got to go party with the Bush twins, who were a lot more fun to hang out with than the Kerry kids would have been.
[right][snapback]655089[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Hey, everything's cool. I don't believe that those who hold more liberal Democrat positions on issues other than the non-negotiables are "bad Catholics," I simply think they're mistaken. These are issues where Catholics are allowed to disagree.

There are many sincere Catholics, like myself, who take a more conservative/libertarian position on economics and the role of government. I believe government should be smaller, and have less power and involvement in the lives of its citizens, not more. I think many federal laws and programs are more of a problem than a solution. This actually fits quite well with the Catholic idea of the principle of subsidiarity.

While I don't think anyone was actually doing this on this thread, I object to those who claim that to be really Catholic, one must not only be against abortion, and euthanasia, but also support more socialistic economic policies, oppose the death penalty, and be pro-gun control, etc. (Especially when they try to muddle these issues to justify voting for a pro-abortion candidate by saying he's more "Catholic" on the other issues.)

I believe there are problems in both parties, but for me, the ideal position would not be something between the Democratic and Republican Parties, but be to the right of Republicans.

Catholic, conservative, and beaver dam proud of it!

Edited July 23, 2005 by Socrates

[StColette]

lol how about no parties

Just say "I'm American and I'm running for Office" lol

[Cam42]

[quote name='StColette' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:46 PM']lol how about no parties

Just say "I'm American and I'm running for Office" lol
[right][snapback]656087[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Parties are necessary Jennie. And it is perfectly acceptable to join whichever party most typifies your views, as long as the non-negotiable issues are taken into account.

It is acceptable for a Catholic to be a Democrat, and it is also perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to be a Republican, as long as the non-negotiable issues are held to. Hence the need for Democrats for Life, et al.

[Jaime]

[quote]Hey, everything's cool. I don't believe that those who hold more liberal Democrat positions on issues other than the non-negotiables are "bad Catholics," I simply think they're mistaken. These are issues where Catholics are allowed to disagree.
[/quote]


Now that you've stated that Socrates, it makes reading through your posts on the topic much easier. When it comes to politics, I love to debate and I have no problems admitting when I was wrong. I thought Reagan was insane on his approach to ending the Cold War, but I had to admit that he was integral in the ending of it.

Anyway, I wanted to give you props for saying that!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:40 PM']Parties are necessary Jennie.  And it is perfectly acceptable to join whichever party most typifies your views, as long as the non-negotiable issues are taken into account.

It is acceptable for a Catholic to be a Democrat, and it is also perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to be a Republican, as long as the non-negotiable issues are held to.  Hence the need for Democrats for Life, et al.
[right][snapback]656114[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I find it the idea that one can be a Democrat and a faithful Catholic just ridiculous. I don't mean that as an attack on anyone in particular, simply a statement of the Democratic party's obsession with providing abortion and the acceptance of euthenasia by that leadership of that party, if one is a regestered Democrat whatever the personal belief on the subject one is infact supporting both of those things, particularly abortion. In Federal elections this directly translates into federal funds being given to those running for an office. Simularly in many States this guarantees a position on the Ballot for men who push the deplorable Crimes. Therefore even being regestered as a Democrat ( and certianly donating time or money to them) in effect helps continue abortion and infact supports it both morally and practicaly. This in turn renders one guilty of aiding in the procurment of abortion and therefore excommunicate.

This doesn't mean that all of the all of that parties positions are objectionable, in fact I think some of them are quite Just ( at least what they say they believe even if many of the elected officals are just as deep in the Corparate pockets as are the Republicans) I think that those Democrats for Life should make their own party but I do not see how anyone can be a catholic and support the current Democratic Party in any way shape or form.

[Jaime]

bump

[IcePrincessKRS]

I deleted two piddly cracks about democrats made early on in this thread. If you're going to debate keep it charitable, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but lets keep this "democrats/republicans smell of elderberries" garbage out of this thread (even if its a joke, its in poor taste and not in keeping with phorum rules against personal attacks).