arinze disobeys his own document!

[Apotheoun]

I hope he turns the priest back around, so that the priest and the people face the eschatological east together again.

[qfnol31]

I'm not sure he will, though I know he wants too.

He's afraid that too much change in the Roman Rite will kill it, and thinks there has been too much change to begin with.... I agree.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:28 AM']I'm not sure he will, though I know he wants too.

He's afraid that too much change in the Roman Rite will kill it, and thinks there has been too much change to begin with....  I agree.
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I hope he does, because that one change alone would help to emphasize the sacrificial nature of the Roman Mass.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:18 AM']You closet Latin traditionalist.


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I'm out of the closet now baby. If I was in charge I would instantly abolish Communion on the hand, the priest facing the people, the "gather" hymnal, reception of Communion standing up, the Theology of Karl Rahner, and at least a dozen other things. But I'm not a [i]radical [/i]traditionalist. :

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:30 AM']I'm out of the closet now baby. If I was in charge I would instantly abolish Communion on the hand, the priest facing the people, the "gather" hymnal, reception of Communion standing up, the Theology of Karl Rahner, and at least a dozen other things. But I'm not a [i]radical [/i]traditionalist.  :
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Wow, you are pretty radical.

Not that that is a bad thing.

[raptor13]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 24 2005, 09:19 AM']im speaking about priests and bishops who let people do whatever they want at mass. Like they need to make it clear that non-catholics cannot recieve, that would be profaning the body and blood of Christ. I'm talking about those who allow liturgical abuses and wacky things to go on at mass.
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During a retreat at my college the priest actually [i]invited [/i]non-catholic christians to participate in the Eucharist!

I was like

+10 Catholic nerd points for anyone who can guess which religious society the priest was from.

[qfnol31]

I was an EM today...does this mean I can't be a Traditionalist?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:37 AM']I was an EM today...does this mean I can't be a Traditionalist? 
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I didn't know you were an Emergency Medical technician. Wow, I'm impressed.

[qfnol31]

: Though we needed one. Our Priest left during Holy Communion, and the Deacon handed me the ciborium because no one else was up there qualified for it (I was an altar boy).

Hopefully when I serve for Bishop Vann in a month I can ask him about the Acolytate after which I'd be an EM (in Ft. Worth) every week I go to Mass there.

Oh, and our other Priest came in right after Communion so we got a blessing. Edited July 24, 2005 by qfnol31

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:44 AM']:  Though we needed one.    Our Priest left during Holy Communion, and the Deacon handed me the ciborium because no one else was up there qualified for it (I was an altar boy).

Hopefully when I serve for Bishop Vann in a month I can ask him about the Acolytate after which I'd be an EM (in Ft. Worth) every week I go to Mass there.

Oh, and our other Priest came in right after Communion so we got a blessing. 
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You should ask about that, because that is the whole point behind Pope Paul VI's opening up the two instituted ministries to any layman.

[Luthien]

[quote name='raptor13' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:37 AM']+10 Catholic nerd points for anyone who can guess which religious society the priest was from.
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Jesuit?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='daugher-of-Mary' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:10 AM']Yeah, I noticed him frowning while distributing Holy Communion.  The tide is slowwwllly turning locally, mostly due to young folks who receive on the tongue.  Something official needs to be done though. A woman I know told me while cleaning a local church, she found hosts (presumably consecrated) in the pews. 

I wonder how many people weren't even aware that he was coming and that Mass would be two hours long.lol. The Saturday evening Mass is always at 5 pm.

ANDDDD Cardinal Arinze was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!  :  : Aloyius, do you feel pontifically blessed? 
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omg yes! I sooo wanted to go to confession today to get that plenerary indulgence but I didn't wake up early enough to get to St. Boniface (Latin Mass, they have confession 30 mins before Mass)

ah well, I was still blessed by Pope Benedict XVI!!! WOOOHOOO (Arinze had been given special faculties to give the pope's blessing)

I got his autograph and talked to him a little... did you stay for the reception in the yard? he came there... it was pretty cool.
[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:20 AM']I am quite sure he took note of it and the priest will hear about it.  Communion is not the time to instruct people who should already know.  That's for a homily.
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actually, I was talking about him distributing communion. it is somewhat more the fault of the people receiving, but it did seem like he gave it to them and then looked back down and the communion thing. he could've at least looked up at them to see if they'd consume in front. anyway, I wasn't watching him till near the end so maybe by that time he had given up.

a couple of times people had weird ways they were holding their hands out and he made them feel awkward about it, cause he went to place it in their hand and did a little jumpity around finding where to put it. you know, like those loosers that hold out both hands like a cup...

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Jul 24 2005, 11:46 AM']Jesuit? 
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that's exactly what I was gonna guess.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 02:57 AM']A major reform of the "reform" of the Roman Rite needs to take place.
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Apotheun....

While I would agree that something needs to be done... i would also caution at arbitrarily and casually using this notion of reforming the reform. Yes, again, I agree something should be done; but care must be taken that we aren't moving willy-nilly to reform. As the Bishops of this country have said, the faithful need some stability. The Church cannot change every 30 years.

Bring back the chant, pump up the latin more, and have better catechesis.... these three basic, fundamental things -- supported and extolled by VII -- will bring order, reverence, mysticism, and holiness back into the hearts of the faithful....

[Paladin D]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:12 AM']Actually I think it would be perfect if he acted like a drill sargeant. Its time to stop letting people get away with murder.
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We had a priest almost like that, unfortunately he wasn't very charitable nor into relationships with his congregation. On top of that, he wasn't very orthodox either. I'm glad he left.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 24 2005, 09:19 AM']im speaking about priests and bishops who let people do whatever they want at mass. Like they need to make it clear that non-catholics cannot recieve, that would be profaning the body and blood of Christ. I'm talking about those who allow liturgical abuses and wacky things to go on at mass.
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I really wish people would explain that! I attended a Catholic Highschool, and I had a teacher who I was really good friends with. She wasn't Catholic but at school Masses she'd get communion. Once, when I asked her why, she said that she didn't know what else to do! I was talking to our Faith Formation Coordinator then, because at that same Mass a few of my friends were trying to explain to others why they weren't supposed to recieve. And she said she'd talk to the religion teachers and have them explain it to their classes, and she'd talk to my teacher friend. That was a mistake. She basically told my teacher friend that she wasn't special enough and God didn't love her! Does anyone have any ideas as to how to explain this should the need arise again? Sadly, the only teaching I've ever heard about it is because I read it on the back of the missalet. Thanks.

[Fidei Defensor]

Some other things that need to be done as well are teaching those of the Latin rite the proper way to show reverence to the Lord in the tabernacle. Bowing is not to be substituted.

I watched a TV mass this morning, and i almost threw up. First off, they went through it so fast, it was disturbing. Every time someone approached the altar, which the tabernacle was directly behind, they either just bowed, or did nothing. The priest never genuflected once, even though he walked past the altar many times.

Now, obviously, this isnt the norm, but it still happens too often in Churches in America.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 24 2005, 02:17 AM']I wouldn't call it "disobedience" necessarily. It would seem to me that the fault lies with the locals more than Arinze. Unexpected enforcement by a visitor is much more difficult of a route to take I would think. (I was at a mass in Sweden and a visiting Polish priest lectured the congregation for not kneeling at the consecration -- I certainly agreed with the priest but congregants were really put off because they weren't told to do so before, and they were wary of his status as a visiting priest. Not that this is fair, of course, but often clerics just temporarily visiting probably have a more difficult time being accepted as enforcers. Yes, of course it was Arinze but you'd be surprised at how many Catholics attending a mass wouldn't have a clue of who he is or at least, the liturgical matters he handles.) It would seem the responsibility lies with the parish priests and bishops to enforce this on a regular basis and "train" people to do what is proper. Perhaps on the spot enforcement wherever he happens to be visiting was not what he was talking about when he was discussing the need for "special care" to be taken.
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Actually, at St. Mary of the Angels in Chicago, I have heard of instances in which the priest would go after someone who was walking away with the Body and tell them "You must eat it!".

Now, here is something that is happening at my parish. There is a severely "mentally challenged" girl (or young woman) who receives in the hand, then takes the Body back to the pew. Someone she normally comes with then breaks the Body into small pieces - I don't know if it's because she cannot handle large pieces or if it just takes her a longer time to eat. At first glance, it may seem like an abuse, but she does consume it all and she is severly mentally challenged. Any thoughts?

[Aloysius]

that should be done while she is in front of the minister distributing communion. at most places you can request that the priest come to your pew if you have trouble receiving if you don't want to hold up the line.

[Oik]

[quote]Apotheun....

While I would agree that something needs to be done... i would also caution at arbitrarily and casually using this notion of reforming the reform. Yes, again, I agree something should be done; but care must be taken that we aren't moving willy-nilly to reform. As the Bishops of this country have said, the faithful need some stability. The Church cannot change every 30 years.

Bring back the chant, pump up the latin more, and have better catechesis.... these three basic, fundamental things -- supported and extolled by VII -- will bring order, reverence, mysticism, and holiness back into the hearts of the faithful....[/quote]


No one will stop going to church because it gets "more reverant."

Those who left the church after VII, left due to poor implementation and/or poor instruction concerning the promulgation of the Pauline Mass (the Novus Ordo).

Seriously though, no one will stop going to Mass because we actually start working within the rubrics. i agree that some might be a little confused. It isn't anuthing that a brief explanation a couple of times before Mass won't clear up.



The phrase "reform of the reform" means the implementation of VII rubrics as they were intented. The Church is not "changing," it is merely finally adhereing to pre-exisiting norms that have been in place for nearly 30 years.

Those things that you mention, those fundemental things, are exactly what the reform of the reform is all about.