Bow Down

[Brother Adam]

Yep. I know. you're thinking "Oh Great, Bro. Adam is back with all of his questions". I know you!

B)

okay, so the Angel that John records in Revelation sounds like he's ready to smack John around for trying to worship the him. The Angel tells John not to bow down to him, but only to worship God, because the angel is a fellow servant.

How does the faithful Catholic explain bowing down to statues of the Saints and Mary? I know that some Catholics will say that they do not worship the Saints or Mary, some say they do worship Mary in a "special way", and so forth. We know that both Mary and the saints are servants to God.

Is bowing or kneeling an act of worship?

have fun!

Edited November 19, 2003 by Brother Adam

[Jake Huether]

If you recal, John thought that the Angel was God. That was the point. We KNOW Mary isn't. Our "kneeling" before a statue, isn't paying hommage to the statue any more than you are worshipping your bed when you kneel in front of it.

Had John in intention bowed to the Angel as a gesture of courtesy rather than thinking he was God, then I don't think the Angel would have done anything.

In other words, John bowed down due to fear of the Lord. The Angel in essence was saying, don't fear me, I'm not God.

It's all about intention.

[Jake Huether]

By the way...

Take your shoes off and stay a while. Sheesh. You just poke your head in and don't even say hi!

Dude, tell us how married life is.

I wanna know what's up.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Hello Bro Adam, glad to see you are still around.

I cant speak for everyone, just myself. But when I kneel to pray, its in reverence for God the Almighty. I might ask Mary to interceed for me, to ask Jesus what im about to ask Jesus.

I personally have never knelt directly in front of a Mary Statue or any other Saint for that matter. Yea they are in front of me, but so is the Crucifix and the Tabernacle.

Besides, John didnt kneel, he feel prostrate on the ground as if Dead. Thats how we should be with God and God only..kneeling however, is the way we pray. I dont feel complete when I pray unless i kneel, unless im somewhere where I cannot kneel.

but this is just me. i only speak for myself

[Brother Adam]

thanks for the response.

jake, please see mythread in the openmic area.

[cmotherofpirl]

When I curtsied to the Queen I did not think she was God. When I salute the flag I don't think it is God.

[Brother Adam]

Hi Catholic. that's what i love about you Catholics (refering to that you 'speak for yourself'). if you say something that is against your churches teaching I can correct you on the matterand there is nothing you can do about it. ;)

Edited November 19, 2003 by Brother Adam

[Uncle Gus]

Yes, we do bow towards statues. Why? Do you have a photo of someone you love? And do you use that photo to remind you of that person whom you love? Same thing with statues. Just as the photo itself is not the person that you love, neither is the statue the person that we love, but simply a device that we use to help us to focus our human faculties on a person. We pay homage to Saints (especially Mary) and so we use statues of these people to remind us of the person to whom we are paying homage.

[Brother Adam]

Hi uncle gus, never met you before.

what to a catholic, is a 'graven image'?

[Uncle Gus]

I don't think I'm qualified to answer that, but I'd say that it's any material thing that is set up in place of God.

P.S. Hi ;)

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Hi Catholic. that's what i love about you Catholics (refering to that you 'speak for yourself'). if you say something that is against your churches teaching I can correct you on the matterand there is nothing you can do about it.   

I wasnt referring to myself to get out of being proven wrong. If I say somethign contrary to Church Teachings I would hope you did correct me. But my fear of being corrected is the least of my problems.

What is important Adam is that the Church does not teach that those statues have power in itself and that we dont worship that statue.

I would be happy to correct myself if you could show me in the Catechism where it says that we are to worship statues and pray TO them.

Actually, i'll go farther and say that if you can prove the Catechism wrong and contrary to the Bible I will become a Bro. Adam Jr.

You want to know why we Catholics do what we do, just open a Catechism, that holds the Teachings of the Church and if you see someone do something contrary to the Catechism then they are not following Church teachings..

plain and simple.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[cmotherofpirl]

Hi uncle gus, never met you before.

what to a catholic, is a 'graven image'?

Anything you worship instead of God.

[Jake Huether]

Bro, I just read it... I must have missed it.

That's so good!

Well, I wont' take this thread off topic.

The point everyone is trying to make is that:

1) What John did, we don't do. He mistook the Angel for God (not really his fault, but that's why the Angel reprimanded him). We know who is God, and we know the Saints aint Him.

2.) What we do in no way is against the 1st Commandment. What we do can be likened to what the Israelites did in front of the broze serpent, or the Ark of the Covenant. Our statues aren't meant for their own worship, as if the actual statue of Mary (let alone Mary herself) was some god. That's what they did at the base of Mount Sini (sp?). Statues for us are just pictures, images, of our extended Family in Christ! The 1st Commandment isn't against making images, or even having images. Otherwise, God's command for Soloman to include Angels and animans in His Temple would have been a huge contradiction. It is against the WORSHIP of images as if they were themselves CREATOR. But we know the statues are created.

Good to have you back, as breif as it may be. Take care.

[dUSt]

Hi uncle gus, never met you before.

what to a catholic, is a 'graven image'?

Bro Adam,

A "graven image" is any material thing that is worshiped as God--usually referring to statues. There was a time when idol/statue worship was very common. Jesus Christ and his Church was the major force that put an end to this practice.

God bless.

[ironmonk]

Adam,

Didn't we all go over this with you about 8 months ago?

Have you forgotten or is this for someone on the sidelines?

Resources:

http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com

Here is a site that you and friends might like... it's a new one: http://www.BaptistBoard.net

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited November 20, 2003 by ironmonk

[Anna]

When you bow your head and pray before eating a big bowl of mac and coagulated milk, are you worshipping the mac'n'coagulated milk?

dUSt, don't answer. We all know that YOU worship mac 'n' coagulated milk!

Pax Christi. <><

[God Conquers]

It's an image that is worshipped en lieu of God.

A statue of Mary or a Saint is used to worship God. Not the saint or Mary. They remind us, point us towards Christ's sacrifice and Lordship by their example. Plus they can intercede for us before the throne of God.

If I was kneeling before a pile of $20 bills and asking them to help me become more wealthy, or an image of a girl and desiring some you-know-what (not necessarily with her). That would be troublesome. And definately graven.

[God Conquers]

It's an image that is worshipped en lieu of God.

A statue of Mary or a Saint is used to worship God. Not the saint or Mary. They remind us, point us towards Christ's sacrifice and Lordship by their example. Plus they can intercede for us before the throne of God.

If I was kneeling before a pile of $20 bills and asking them to help me become more wealthy, or an image of a girl and desiring some you-know-what (not necessarily with her). That would be troublesome. And definately graven.

[Brother Adam]

Well, getting the same answer about 5 or 6 times over is enough

Ironmonk, I was getting to miss you're remarks that often left me frustrated. I see they are back! I don't know if you went over the whole statue thing 8 months ago. Maybe you did. I know that you know there is a great deal to Catholicism, and once in a while you have to relearn something.

---

Oh, and as I'm reading the catachism I haven't found anything yet that is anti-biblical. Many things that are "un-biblical", but drats, so are the pews in our Baptist Church, so I can't get you there.

---

I really hope none of you think I'm attacking the Catholic Church in my questions. I see a little bit of hostility in certian posts. There is a lot of work to be done folks. It is my hope one day to actually see the damage that has been done by splitting up the Christian church undone. Patience though is definitely a virtue in all that. Patience and Prayer and Strength.

Oh, and if it makes anyone feel better I corrected my pastor in church on his teaching of what he thought purgatory is (he taught the church that it was a process to earn your way into heaven after death)

God Bless

Bro. Adam, at the library. :rolleyes:

[ironmonk]

Oh, and as I'm reading the catachism I haven't found anything yet that is anti-biblical. Many things that are "un-biblical", but drats, so are the pews in our Baptist Church, so I can't get you there.

You will not find anything that is anti-biblical.

And everything in the Catechism is biblical. Nothing is un-biblical.

• The fact that the bible canon came from the Catholic Church.
  
• The fact that the Bible states that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is the Church (1 Tim 3:15)
  
• The fact that Peter was the Rock. (St. Matt 16:18-19, St. John 1:42)
  
• The fact that Peter was the leader after Jesus left. (St. John 21:15-17)
  
• The fact that Jesus gave the Keys to Heaven to Peter. (St. Matt 16:19)
  

Shows that the Catholic Church teachings are all biblical.

A better study would be "How does the Scripture teach Catholicism?"... for the bible is Catholic.

See, it's not a arguement of the chicken before the egg, because we have historical facts that show us what Church was started by Christ, and where the Canon of the Bible came from.

I say this with concern...

Why do you fight it? So many things that you have found the truth about cannot be answered by any other Church.

To many facts have been presented to you for you to be protected by ignorance of not knowing which Church was founded by Christ.

God gave you a mind to think and realize the Truth... if you do not understand everything, but you understand some things, and those things that you understand you only see the Catholic Church teaching them, then you owe it to Christ to actively seek to enter His Church.

You know that the Church built by Christ will never be overcome.(St. Matt 16:18-19)

You know that the Church must be visable so that mankind will have a chance to know Christ. (St. Matt 5:13-15)

You know that the Church built by Christ has the power to forgive sins, and no where in the bible was that taken away.(St. John 20:23)

You know that the Church built by Christ will be of One Faith... i.e. One Teaching... (Eph. 4:5)

The Catholic Church is the only Church that can answer all questions under scrutiny against it.... all other fail... even if only for the simple fact that they started after 1517 AD.

And the Dontist, Anabaptist, etc... argument is blown out of the water when we look at what each group taught... they where not One Faith.

Why is it that all the anti-Catholics out there all have conflicting teachings about what the Catholic Church teaches? They can't get their stories straight... this must speak volumes to you.

Given all the facts which you have, and I would think that you believe them, because you haven't refuted them....

I simply do not understand how or why you would choose to stay outside of the Catholic Church.

Love in Christ - Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited November 20, 2003 by ironmonk