Bow Down

[marielapin]

Bro Adam, the reason you might be seeing some hostility is that since you've been gone we've had some rather hostile protestant visitors. Our newbies don't know how sweet and understanding you are and so are probably expecting the same thing again. We aren't all perfect, ya know.

And Ironmonk, seriously, lay off Adam. A change of heart takes time. One cannot unlearn all they have learned overnight.

Keep asking the good questions, Adam!

[Anna]

Ironmonk, I was getting to miss you're remarks that often left me frustrated.

QUOTE IronMonk

Given all the facts which you have, and I would think that you believe them, because you haven't refuted them....

I simply do not understand how or why you would choose to stay outside of the Catholic Church.

It appears the feeling is mutual!

Oh, and if it makes anyone feel better I corrected my pastor in church on his teaching of what he thought purgatory is

Way to go, Bro Adam.

How did your pastor take to being corrected?

Pax Christi. <><

[Katholikos]

Hello, Bro Adam. Glad to have you back among us.

Did you give up on theSpirit of Catholicism? And Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic? Or didn't feel inclined to read them? Just wondering. No answer expected.

When I was a Protestant, I was a Bible worshipper. I used to kneel often in front of my open bible and pray with my head bowed. But if anyone was watching, it was hard for them to tell whether I was worshipping my bed or my chair or my Bible. :D

The Protestants renumbered the Commandments to make "graven images" a separate Second Commandment, aimed at the Catholic Church, of course. Then they combined two other Commandments so they would still come out to ten.

The First Commandment for Catholics (and some but not all Jews) is "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." (The rest, including 'graven images,' is commentary on that main point.) The Second Commandment is, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."

Some Jews consider "I am the Lord thy God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage" as the First, and "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" as the Second Commandment. The Third is then "...the name of the Lord thy God in vain." "Graven image" NEVER stands alone in Jewish usage, but is always part of "no other Gods," and is the same for Catholics.

For Protestants as well as Catholics, the first Commandment is the same. But for Protestants, the Second Commandment is "Thou shalt not make unto thyself a graven image."

"Graven image" is broadly interpreted by the Catholic Church as anyone or anything that is worshipped other than the One Almighty Triune God (wealth, cars, beauty, nature, self, etc.).

Modern Jewish translations say "sculptured" rather than "graven." Websters says the word means carved or sculptured.

JMJ Likos

[God Conquers]

Bro Adam, the reason you might be seeing some hostility is that since you've been gone we've had some rather hostile protestant visitors. Our newbies don't know how sweet and understanding you are and so are probably expecting the same thing again.

However this doesn't excuse it. Excuse us.

[Paladin D]

Glad to have you here Brother Adam!

[phatcatholic]

this may not even be necessary--but, just in case it is--one "image" that catholics DO bow down in front of w/ the FULL INTENT of worshipping is the Holy Eucharist. BUT, this is b/c catholics believe that, that single wafer is more than just an image, but the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ! (ahh, i love saying that last part!).

actually, when i go to Eucharistic Adoration i'm not even bowing down......i'm on my freakin face, totally humbling myself before the Lord. would you not do the same in the very presence of your Lord?

man, i love the Eucharist....

pax christi,

nick

[Paladin D]

this may not even be necessary--but, just in case it is--one "image" that catholics DO bow down in front of w/ the FULL INTENT of worshipping is the Holy Eucharist. BUT, this is b/c catholics believe that, that single wafer is more than just an image, but the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ! (ahh, i love saying that last part!).

actually, when i go to Eucharistic Adoration i'm not even bowing down......i'm on my freakin face, totally humbling myself before the Lord. would you not do the same in the very presence of your Lord?

man, i love the Eucharist....

pax christi,

nick

Freakin, my language inDouche. B)

Unfortunately I can't attend a parish, which totally smells of elderberries...

[phatcatholic]

why can't u attend a parish? (sorry, i'm new to the group) man, that does kinda smell of elderberries huh? somethin else that "smells of elderberries" is when the parish that you are lucky enough to attend is not passionate about the Eucharist, and then u have these big blocks of time where the Holy Eucharist is being exposed but noone is there to worship b/c noone cares enough! grrrr.....

deep breaths........ok.........i'm better now.

nice to meet you btw :D

pax christi,

nick

[Paladin D]

why can't u attend a parish? (sorry, i'm new to the group) man, that does kinda smell of elderberries huh? somethin else that "smells of elderberries" is when the parish that you are lucky enough to attend is not passionate about the Eucharist, and then u have these big blocks of time where the Holy Eucharist is being exposed but noone is there to worship b/c noone cares enough! grrrr.....

deep breaths........ok.........i'm better now.

nice to meet you btw  :D

pax christi,

nick

Nice to meet ya dude.

To make a long story short, I'll put it in a general time table.

- Born in hospital, baptized by a Catholic Priest (it was unclear if I were to survive, born premature)

- Raised with some Catholicism, but mainly went to Pentecostal and AoG churches. Parents were born and raised Catholic, but never fully got into it as much.

- My family decided to go to a Catholic parish right behind my old home for 3 years, from 11 to 13 years of age. Though still ignorant to many of the teachings, and so were my parents (despite growing up with it). And to top it off, I partook of the Eucharist many times, not knowing it was really Christ.

- Around the beginning of 2003, I slowly started to get very interested in the Catholic Church. Note, I didn't hate it before hand... but I disagreed with a lot of it's doctrines.

- Thanks to an Anti-Catholic history book I used, it made me even more curious to do my research on the Catholic Church and it's teachings. (History book was a Protestant one, A Beka)

- I researched more and more about the Catholic Church, through Catholic sources. Over time, I slowly started to see Thee Truth, though I had some trouble accepting some doctrines at first. Though oddly enough some I already believed in personally, before even discovering that the Catholic Church taught it!

- Soon enough, I found Phatmass through Catholic.org... and been here ever since.

Note: I had no idea I was baptized by a Catholic priest, till a couple months ago. But when I'm able to attend a parish, I'll have to get a conditional baptism.

My family is dominately Protestant aligned, with some Catholicism. They are not anti-Catholic, but they disagree with some issues of the Church. They are ignorant to many of it's teachings.

So I'm forced to remain without a parish, without Sacraments, and do the best I can seperated from my Catholic brothers and sisters (well I got the internet). Not saying non-Catholic Christians aren't brothers or sisters, but we don't always see eye to eye on things.

[Paladin D]

What's scary is, I didn't even have First Communion or Confirmation...

Yet I partook in the Eucharist!

I went to Confession once, but I don't remember if it was "first confession" or just an ordinary one. Plus I was very young, nervous, and I didn't confess my sins properlly. So it wasn't valid (thats what I remember, compared to what a Confession really is).

[phatcatholic]

PD,

sorry, maybe i missed it, but i still don't understand why u can't join a parish. is it b/c u don't have a valid baptism? or b/c ur family isn't catholic?

let me know (i'm interested for some reason )

nick

[Paladin D]

PD,

sorry, maybe i missed it, but i still don't understand why u can't join a parish. is it b/c u don't have a valid baptism? or b/c ur family isn't catholic?

let me know (i'm interested for some reason  )

nick

I want to go through an RCIA program (yet I read somewhere that those who are already Christian, should not go to RCIA), and attend a parish.

My mother sees it as unnecessary for me to join a parish, and doesn't want me to at the time. And since she's the boss of the family, I'm pretty much screwed.

Note: My parents are legally Catholic, and so is my older brother. My younger brother isn't though.

[cmotherofpirl]

RCIA can be good or bad depending on the quality of the instruction.

Many Catholics have fallen into the protestant I don't need a church, just a relationship error.

[Jake Huether]

Dude, Ironmonk... I love ya man, you are correct in everything that you say. But you MUST "round the edges" a bit. You've really been rippin' into people lately. Some rightly so, I imagine. But for crying out loud, this is Bro we're talking about. He's one of the MOST Catholic non-Catholics there are (and not to mention pretty darn Catholic even form some of the Catholics I know).

I didn't find his question offensive. And when he said "un-biblical" it was fully understood that he didn't mean it in the sense that you took it.

For the sake of Truth, keep posting the same content that you are. But for the sake of charity, please change the tone.

Oh, and as I'm reading the catachism I haven't found anything yet that is anti-biblical. Many things that are "un-biblical", but drats, so are the pews in our Baptist Church, so I can't get you there. 

Bro was actually being VERY complimentary toward the Catechism. It does contain quite a few things that can't be found in the Bible. They support the Bible, but they aren't actually IN the Bible (Like much of the Marian doctrine, and explicative things). But, most protestants won't even crack it open without thinking they will be damned. His point is WELL taken. Yet, you rip into him like a winter storm in Colorado. I wouldn't be surprised if you totally turned him OFF to the Catechism.

Bro is one of the most understanding and patient people on this phorum.

Iron, seriously, please consider the way you present your material.

God bless.

[phatcatholic]

PD,

ohh ok, i didn't realize u were that young.

maaaan, i say join anyway. do you go to a church regularly on sunday? if you did, then she wouldn't even have to know that you became an official member. hmm....do u have to be 18 to join a church as an individual, separate from your family? if not, then i would go for it. i mean, i'm down w/ "honor ur father and mother" and i see how you may be disinclined to be that seemingly coercive, but u have to think, what reeeally is more honorable to ur mother: not going to church/participating in a church or going to church and being a participant? i would have to go w/ the latter.

btw, if you really wanted to go to Eucharistic Adoration, alot of churches will just let you drop in, especially if they have an adoration chapel especially devoted to the Eucharist. even if u did have to sign up and go at a specific time, i doubt that any church checks the name on the list to see if they are actual members. i think most priests are just glad that people are showing up!

i guess what i'm saying is that if you really want to be a part of a church u could be. (not to question ur desire..........just letting you know that there are options ).

good luck and God Bless,

nick

[phatcatholic]

btw, i know i'm new, but i agree w/ Jake. today was the first time ever that i saw a protestant ask a question, and catholics give their answer, and then have the protestant just say, "ok." he may not have come right out and said that he agreed w/ our position on bowing and graven images, but he accepted it---and i think that is pretty cool. so, i plan on being majorly considerate, especially since, from what i have read, it seems that bro. adam is well recieved here and quite considerate towards us. plus, i know that--even after one has accepted catholic doctrine completely--it can still be hard to make that final step, seeing how it radically changes your life forever. i have a friend who is in that very predicament. personally, i plan on being fervently patient (i've never attached those two words before!) until the bitter end if that's what it takes to help guide him into the fold.

pax christi,

nick

[Paladin D]

If I was able to go, I would.

I live in the country, and you pretty much need a vehicle to get to the parishes. I haven't been to any of them, but one (which I heard had problems with the Priest).

Plus, I'm Homeschooled. And... I never go anywhere alone by myself outside the house. So... they would notice I'm gone lol.

[phatcatholic]

group,

i know this convo bet. me and PD (can i call you "P Diddy"? hehe) is straying off the topic, so i'll just say one more thing about it. we can holla at e/o individually if necessary.

anyway, i understand ur situation now. and yes, that does smell of elderberries. i'm not sure what i would do w/o the graces i recieve thru the sacraments. its hard enough to live a good life WITH them, let alone WITHOUT them! hopefully, u pray every day for ur family's conversion. btw, if you go to catholicexchange.com, you can click on a live feed of the Blessed Sacrament. i'm sitting here thinking about how wierd it would be to see you kneeling down in front of ur computer screen, hehe. shoot, i say do what you gotta do.

good luck brother,

nick

[sista2b]

PD,

I had some trouble w/ my parents when I had a reversion i guess you'd call it. I was 15 or so. Luckly i live like a block in a half from my parish. My parents are Catholic, but the typical cradle Cathlics. Ya know what i mean. 50's Cathlic School, misunderstood Vatican II, and saw their religious sister teachers go from loyal to ....well lets just say not so loyal. ne way not only was i spending too much time w/ the priests and youth group, but not too much later, i became convinced of my vocation.

They didn't take the idea of thier little girl leaving them for the rest of thier lives very well at first. (btw they have been more accepting of lately yayay!)

I know my situation, was a lot better than yours, but some advice i got constantly, and continue to at times, from priests is obediance can get you so many graces. It sux royally, but the graces pay off. Suffer w/ St. Catherine of Sienna, her parents were hugely against her. I know there's other saints but i've been doin algebra for too long and its time to go to bed. I just wanted to let you know people know how you feel, at least to some extent, and we're prayin for you.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

oh pally I didnt know that about you..Dude, one thing you can do is ask Jesus to give you His Body and Blood spiritually..I will offer some prayers up for your parents as well. Man, why any parent would want to keep their kids from Christ is beyond me, even if they didnt want to go, they could at least drop you off or something. Im so sorry Paladin for your situation.

But since you was Baptised Catholic, you are Catholic. I dont see from what you described anything to not make you a 'Legal' Catholic. Dont be scared about your confession not being valid. You were young, Christ was happy that you was even there given your circumstances. Trust in his mercy, do a good Act of Contrition and you'll be fine. As far as RCIA, CMom is right, it depends on the instructor at your RCIA program that would make it worth going. I think Bro. Adam had the same issue when he tried RCIA, he knew more than the instructor, which is pretty sad. I was fortunate to have knowledgable instructors plus my Priest would come in and teach too.

Would your parents allow someone from the parish to come get you and bring you home?? Just a thought.

God Bless you Pali, keep your chin up.

CatholicAndFanatical