Need a wee bit of help

[StColette]

Anyone have a Greek Lexicon handy. I could only find one online that used the KJV as a reference. I need information on the word

adelphos


God Bless,
Jen

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 2 2005, 07:32 PM']Anyone have a Greek Lexicon handy. I could only find one online that used the KJV as a reference. I need information on the word

adelphos
God Bless,
Jen
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I own a couple lexicons.. I still haven't moved all my books from my old house though. But I happen to know a lot about many Greek words, including that one. What kind of information do you need?

[StColette]

Well, I know what it means according to what the Church says. That it can mean blood brother, half-brother, step-brother, people of the same nation, people of the same beliefs, etc. and is also used with sister as well. Well, I've always been taught and I've always read that it can also stand for kinsmen or cousin.

According to a Protestant, who used a Lexicon using the KJV and he said that the Lexicon says that it is never used in regarding a cousin or kinsmen.

So I was just wanting to check some other sources before I made another post concerning this word.

[Quietfire]

I found this proving your Protestant friend wrong, it came from a greek Lexicon using the KJV...

Definition
a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
any fellow or man
a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
an associate in employment or office
brethren in Christ
his brothers by blood
all men
apostles
Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

[Quietfire]

[url="http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=80&l=en"]is this what your looking for?[/url]

[StColette]

That would be the one I actually read, but it doesn't mention cousin or kinsmen. And if it doesn't spell out cousin or kinsmen they're not going to accept it.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 2 2005, 08:10 PM']Well, I know what it means according to what the Church says. That it can mean blood brother, half-brother, step-brother, people of the same nation, people of the same beliefs, etc. and is also used with sister as well.  Well, I've always been taught and I've always read that it can also stand for kinsmen or cousin.

According to a Protestant, who used a Lexicon using the KJV and he said that the Lexicon says that it is never used in regarding a cousin or kinsmen.

So I was just wanting to check some other sources before I made another post concerning this word.
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Well actually it's not a matter that the Church has made a pronouncement on. Neither have they pronounced that anyone in scripture was Jesus cousin. The language is a matter of history, not of Church teaching. I suggest you read an article by Fr. Mateo that will help in understanding all of this better.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9002fea2.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9002fea2.asp[/url]
I think Adelphos was not used for cousins or rarely so. The KJV lexicon allows for use in a broader sense as with relatives.

1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man
4. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5. an associate in employment or office
6. brethren in Christ
1. his brothers by blood
2. all men
3. apostles
4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place
[url="http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=80&version=kjv"]http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Gr...=80&version=kjv[/url]

Likely adelphos was rarely used for cousins only.
There is no question that it was used on a broader level than just brother and it would seem very odd to me that in a group of varying relatives that included cousins it would not be used. Say at the family reunion. Ah, look all our aneposis, and adelphos, and sugennes and ..... are here. Or Ah, all our adelphos are here. You tell me.
Now here is what I think and have seen some evidence of this in Catholic writings. I think James and Joses were son's of Mary, wife of Clopas, who was Mary's sister, likely cousin. But perhaps sister of another form of relation. Simon and Judas I believe were some other type of relative. Thus when the four were named together it would not have worked to call the suggenes so adelphos which had a broader meaning was used. None of this of course can be "proven" with scripture and you won't get them to admit it. They have to prove Mary had other children. They can't let it rest. I am quite willing to admit I cannot prove it from scripture but can offer alternative explanatoins to them as to how it is possible Mary did not have other children. The damning evidence for them is they have no verse that says "son of Mary" except where it is likely James and Joses, sons of Mary who is wife of Clopas.

I hope that is of some use.

Edited August 3, 2005 by thessalonian

[StColette]

I went through all the names of the supposed "other children of Mary" and showed who belonged to who. So I'm not worried about that matter. I showed proof of no other children without using the Greek word Adelphos. And I don't mean to imply that adelphos was only used to refer to cousins.

for example I said

[quote]Since the Greek word for adelphos means "brother" it does not necessarily mean blood brothers born of the same parents. For example, adelphos is used in Gen 13:8 and 14:14- 16 to describe the relationship between Abraham and Lot. Now we all know that Abraham was the uncle of Lot.[/quote]

I didn't mention once anything about cousins, which makes me wonder how much of my post the person actually read lol

I'm just curious what other Greek Lexicons say. Since I've read on numerous Catholic pages that it is used for cousin as well as blood brothers etc.

Edited August 3, 2005 by StColette

[StColette]

found this [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/JESBRS.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/JESBRS.TXT[/url]

[Quietfire]

[url="http://members.aol.com/UticaCW/baptist/mary2.html"]check this.[/url]

Just slappin up what I find in quick searches. You can get into the dirty stuff on yer own time there sister.he,he.
[url="http://www.rr-bb.com/archive/index.php/t-114889.html"]or this[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/archives/cinapol/200009/0096.html"]or this-with a response from our own Likos.[/url]

so far everything else is blabber chatter.
I will keep looking if ya want.

[StColette]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 2 2005, 09:01 PM'][url="http://members.aol.com/UticaCW/baptist/mary2.html"]check this.[/url]

Just slappin up what I find in quick searches.  You can get into the dirty stuff on yer own time there sister.he,he.
[url="http://www.rr-bb.com/archive/index.php/t-114889.html"]or this[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/archives/cinapol/200009/0096.html"]or this-with a response from our own Likos.[/url]

so far everything else is blabber chatter.
I will keep looking if ya want.
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Thanks lol

Answer by Fr. John Trigilio on 07-02-2004:
The ENGLISH translation of the Bible uses the word "BROTHERS" The original GREEK text of the Gospels uses the word "ADELPHOI", the plural of "ADELPHOS"
Ancient Hebrew and Greek had no words to distinguish "relatives," "cousins," "siblings", "uncles", or "nephews" like we do in our modern English language. Hence, a 'cousin' as we would use the term, was either called the long way “the son of the brother of my father” or they used the inclusive and more informal word "adelphos" in Greek or "ach" in Hebrew. It can mean blood brother as in the case of the son of my mother and father, OR it can mean a close male relative like an uncle or cousin.

Check out in the KING JAMES VERSION of the Bible,

Genesis 11:27

"Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot."

From this passage we naturally conclude that Lot, the son of Haran, is also the nephew of Abram (Abraham) since Haran and Abram are both brothers and sons of Terah. Abram is the UNCLE of Lot and Lot is the NEPHEW of Abram. HOWEVER, ancient Hebrew and Greek did not have or use words like 'nephew' or 'uncle'

Genesis 14:14-16

"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people."

Notice verse 16 "his BROTHER Lot" ? But Lot is NOT the 'brother' of Lot in the way we use "brother" in modern English. Gen 11:27 proves that Lot is the nephew of Abram. Gen 14:16 calls him "brother"

OBVIOUSLY, even the KJV recognizes the Hebrew (ach) and Greek (adelphos) generic use of 'brother' just as we use the word "relative" (my brother is my relative, my uncle is my relative and my cousin is my relative) ADELPHOS can mean 'brethren' or 'kin'

So, why if the BIBLE uses 'brother' to refer to the uncle-nephew relationship of Abraham and Lot, can it not use the same interpretation and application when it speaks of the "brothers" of Jesus? Could they not be His "cousins"? John the Baptist was one cousin we know of but He could have and probably had more male relatives. Mary and Joseph probably had brothers and sisters and their children would have been cousins to Jesus, like James the ADELPHOS (brother) mentioned in the New Testament.

Lastly, IF Jesus had siblings (brothers and sisters as we use the terms today), then WHERE were they when He died on Good Friday? According to Jewish custom and Hebrew Law, the surviving siblings would be BOUND to care for the mother if the eldest son died. Jesus however, entrusts His mother Mary to Saint John (see the Gospel of John 19:26-27)

"When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home."

Had there been brothers and sisters of Jesus as we use the term, THEY would have been there at Calvary and they would have taken care of Mary. The fact that John was asked to care for the mother of Jesus demonstrates there were no siblings only relatives (uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.)

[thessalonian]

Honestly I have come to the conclusion that it is rarely used for cousin if at all. But the Catholic position is not that it has to mean cousin. However if there was a cousin in a group of relatives that they called adelophos, I highly doudt they would separate the cousin out is my point. So in that sense it applies to cousin.

[Quietfire]

Cool.
Im slappin this up here anyway in case someone finds it interesting.

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html"]blue letter bible[/url]

[StColette]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Aug 2 2005, 09:11 PM']Honestly I have come to the conclusion that it is rarely used for cousin if at all.  But the Catholic position is not that it has to mean cousin.  However if there was a cousin in a group of relatives that they called adelophos, I highly doudt they would separate the cousin out is my point.  So in that sense it applies to cousin.
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Yeah I understand that, I never implied that it had to mean cousin or that the Catholic position said it had to mean cousin. I was asking "can" it. Since the Protestant said that it is never used in scripture to denote a uncle, aunt, or cousin.

[StColette]

*keeps reading a ton of articles*

[phatcatholic]

the [b][url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/EastonsBibleDictionary/ebd.cgi?number=T655"]entry for brother[/url][/b] in Easton's Bible Dictionary lists as one of its definitions for brother "a near relation, a cousin" and gives as an example of this [b][url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+12%3A46&section=0&version=str&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=12&NavCurrentChapter=12"]Mat 12:46[/url][/b], in which the greek word for brother here is [i]adelphos[/i].

[StColette]

Ooooooooooh Nick thank you!!! *gives Nick a giant hug*

[phatcatholic]

the more often you can refer to protestant sources to make ur claims the better :

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 2 2005, 11:39 PM']the more often you can refer to protestant sources to make ur claims the better :
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lol I know, Micah was helping me with the Greek for "Full of Grace" one day for a Crusade site. And we found a Protestant source that upheld what Catholics do. I about fell off my chair.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 3 2005, 12:21 AM']lol I know, Micah was helping me with the Greek for "Full of Grace" one day for a Crusade site. And we found a Protestant source that upheld what Catholics do. I about fell off my chair.
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sweet, do u still have the link?