Need a wee bit of help

[thessalonian]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 6 2005, 02:26 PM']Thanks

You're doin awesome as well :
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Thanks as well.

[phatcatholic]

what exactly did he accuse her of?

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 7 2005, 09:03 PM']what exactly did he accuse her of?
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[quote]Once again you cite Eastons but reject their conclusion. Let me repost from Eastons what you and St. Collette left out concerning the word brother.

Collette posted this:

Brother -
(1.) In the natural and common sense (Matt. 1:2; Luke 3:1, 19).


(2.) A near relation, a cousin (Gen. 13:8; 14:16; Matt. 12:46; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Gal. 1:19).


(3.) Simply a fellow-countryman (Matt. 5:47; Acts 3:22; Heb. 7:5).


(4.) A disciple or follower (Matt. 25:40; Heb. 2:11, 12).


(5.) One of the same faith (Amos 1:9; Acts 9:30; 11:29; 1 Cor. 5:11); whence the early disciples of our Lord were known to each other as brethren.


But what she left out was this:

8.) One beloved or closely united with another in affection (2 Sam. 1:26; Acts 6:3; 1 Thess. 5:1). Brethren of Jesus (Matt. 1:25; 12:46, 50: Mark 3:31, 32; Gal. 1:19; 1 Cor. 9:5, etc.) were probably the younger children of Joseph and Mary. Some have supposed that they may have been the children of Joseph by a former marriage, and others that they were the children of Mary, the Virgin's sister, and wife of Cleophas. The first interpretation, however, is the most natural.

So you use Eastons but reject it at the same time!!![/quote]

When in fact I posted

Brother -
(1.) In the natural and common sense (Matt. 1:2; Luke 3:1, 19).


(2.) A near relation, a cousin (Gen. 13:8; 14:16; Matt. 12:46; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Gal. 1:19).


(3.) Simply a fellow-countryman (Matt. 5:47; Acts 3:22; Heb. 7:5).


(4.) A disciple or follower (Matt. 25:40; Heb. 2:11, 12).


(5.) One of the same faith (Amos 1:9; Acts 9:30; 11:29; 1 Cor. 5:11); whence the early disciples of our Lord were known to each other as brethren.

8.) One beloved or closely united with another in affection (2 Sam. 1:26; Acts 6:3; 1 Thess. 5:1). Brethren of Jesus (Matt. 1:25; 12:46, 50: Mark 3:31, 32; Gal. 1:19; 1 Cor. 9:5, etc.) were probably the younger children of Joseph and Mary. Some have supposed that they may have been the children of Joseph by a former marriage, and others that they were the children of Mary, the Virgin's sister, and wife of Cleophas. The first interpretation, however, is the most natural.

Now while this dictionary says that the brothers referred to in the Gospel are children of Joseph and Mary, which I disagree with. This dictionary also says that the term brother can mean a near relation or cousin, such as in: Genesis 13:8; 14:16; Matthew 12:46; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19.

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he apologized for the false statement so no biggie

[phatcatholic]

wow, that's cool that he apologized

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 7 2005, 11:31 PM']wow, that's cool that he apologized
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Yep I agree From what Thess told me that's very rare that this guy would apologize.

[StColette]

Okay I'm just posting this stuff so I can keep track easier

[quote]StColette, can you give me verses where you believe that adelphos is being used for cousin. Any verse please except those that use the word in speaking of Jesus's brothers.[/quote]

Easton's Bible Dictionary:
A near relation, a cousin (Genesis 13:8; 14:16; Matthew 12:46; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19).

Now since you won't allow me to use the ones like Matthew 12:46, Acts 1:14 and Galatians 1:19 since they speak of Jesus' "brothers" I can only give you these.

Genesis 13:8

And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren. (KJV)

Greek:
eipen de abram tw lwt mh estw mach ana meson emou kai sou kai ana meson twn poimenwn mou kai ana meson twn poimenwn sou oti anqrwpoi adelfoi hmeis esmen

Hebrew:

wY(mr (bre (l-l+ (l-n( thy mrybh Byny Wbynyj Wbya r)y Wbya r)yj Ky-(n$ye (xye (nxaW

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

Lot being the son of his brother Haran; brethren in religion, of the same faith in the one true and living God, and worshippers of him; and therefore on all accounts, by the ties of nature, relation, and religion, they were obliged to seek and cultivate peace and love.

Genesis 14:16

And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. (KJV)

Greek:

kai apestreyen pasan thn ippon sodomwn kai lwt ton adelfon autou apestreyen kai ta uparconta autou kai tas gunaikas kai ton laon

Hebrew

wY$b (t Kl-hrk$ wge (t-l+ (xyw Wrk$O h$yb wge (t-hN$ye w(t-h)e

Strong's Hebrew: x)

'ach awkh /cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=0251h.rm
/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=0251h.rm

Parts of Speech Noun Masculine

Definition: brother

brother of same parents
half-brother (same father)
relative, kinship, same tribe
each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
(fig.) of resemblance

John 7:3

His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. (KJV)

eipon oun proV auton oi adelfoi autou, metabhqi enteuqen kai upage eiV thn ioudaian, ina kai oi maqhtai sou qewrhsousin sou ta erga a poieiV:

ATS Bible Dictionary

BROTHER
Signifies in Scripture the son of the same parent or parents, Matthew 1:2 Luke 6:14; a cousin or near kinsman, Genesis 13:8 14:16 John 7:3 Acts 1:14; one of the same stock or country, Matthew 5:47 Acts 3:22 Hebrews 7:5; a fellow-man, and equal, Matthew 5:23 7:3; one beloved, 2 Samuel 1:26; Christians, as sons of God, Acts 9:30 11:29. In Matthew 12:46-50 13:55,56 Mark 3:31-35, the brothers of Christ are so mentioned, in connection with his mother and sisters, as almost to require us to believe they were children of Joseph and Mary, younger than Jesus. Yet this is not quite certain, as it may be that the James, Joses, and Judas in Matthew 13:55, are the nephews of Christ alluded to in Matthew 27:56 Luke 6:15,16 John 19:25; Cleophas and Alphaeus being probably the same.

Holman Bible Dictionary

BROTHERS
In the Old Testament, the word brother usually refers to the blood relationship of siblings (Exodus 4:14; Judges 9:5). In fact, the book of Genesis addresses the difficulties of sibling rivalry, or the “brother problem”: Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:1); Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25-28); Joseph and his brothers (Genesis 37-50). In each instance, the younger brother is the one favored by God. (See also Genesis 37-50 among Jesse's sons, 2 Samuel 1:26.)

The New Testament also reflects the use of the word brother to designate a physical relationship. Luke mentions that Herod and Philip are brothers (Luke 3:1). Among the disciples, Simon and Andrew are siblings (Mark 1:16); so also are James and John (Mark 1:19). The four brothers of Jesus are mentioned in Mark 3:31 and named in Mark 6:3. Other examples of physical brothers are found in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:28), the story of the disputed inheritance (Luke 12:13), and the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:1).

The term brother is also used in the Old Testament to signify kinsmen, allies, fellow countrymen. The word is used in Genesis 13:8 to describe the relationship of Abram and his nephew, Lot (“we be brethren”). Solomon and Hiram of Tyre are called brothers after they entered into political alliance with one another (1 Kings 9:13). Often, the term brothers is found in apposition to the phrase “the children of Israel” (Leviticus 25:46; Deuteronomy 3:18; Deuteronomy 24:7; Judges 20:13; cf. Numbers 25:6). Basic to this idea is the notion that the tribes and nation of Israel descended from a common father.
This shift of focus from blood to spiritual kinship is found in the teachings of Jesus when He designated as brothers those “which hear the word of God, and do it” (Luke 8:20). The fledgling Christian community continued this emphasis on brother as expressing a spiritual relationship. Paul regularly addressed the Christian community as brothers (1 Corinthians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 1:4). In fact, in most of the New Testament passages where brethren is used to designate the entire Christian community (male and female), the word may be better translated as “fellow Christians” (Philippians 4:1-9). The dual function of the term brother as describing both a physical and spiritual relationship bears eloquent testimony to the importance in the Christian community of both the family of flesh and the family of faith. See Sister; Early Church; Paul.

Easton's Bible Dictionary

Brother

In the natural and common sense (Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:1,19).
A near relation, a cousin (Genesis 13:8; 14:16; Matthew 12:46; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19).

Simply a fellow-countryman (Matthew 5:47; Acts 3:22; Hebrews 7:5).

A disciple or follower (Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:11,12).

One of the same faith (Amos 1:9; Acts 9:30; 11:29; 1 Corinthians 5:11); whence the early disciples of our Lord were known to each other as brethren.

A colleague in office (Ezra 3:2; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2co 1:1).

A fellow-man (Genesis 9:5; 19:7; Matthew 5:22,23,24; 7:5; Hebrews 2:17).

One beloved or closely united with another in affection (2 Samuel 1:26; Acts 6:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:1).

Brethren of Jesus (Matthew 1:25; 12:46,50: Mark 3:31,32; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, etc.) were probably the younger children of Joseph and Mary. Some have supposed that they may have been the children of Joseph by a former marriage, and others that they were the children of Mary, the Virgin's sister, and wife of Cleophas. The first interpretation, however, is the most natural.

Easton's Bible Dictionary is considered to be one of the most popular Bible dictionaries in the world. Its easy to read layman style dictionary has 3964 Biblical definitions, and the Easton's Bible Dictionary is a recommended resource for any good study library.

This bastion of knowledge, written by Matthew George Easton, was published in 1897, three years after his death. Using the most recent information in that day, Easton presented a concise volume that has aided both layman and scholar in their study of God's word.

Smith's

Brother

The Hebrew word is used in various senses in the Old Testament, as,

Any kinsman, and not a mere brother; e.g. nephew, (Genesis 13:8; 14:16) husband, (Solomon 4:9)

One of the same tribe. (2 Samuel 19:13)

Of the same people, (Exodus 2:11) or even of a cognate people. (Numbers 20:14)

An ally. (Amos 1:9)

Any friend, (Job 5:15)

One of the same office. (1 Kings 9:13)

A fellow man. (Leviticus 19:17)

Metaphorically of any similarity, as in (Job 30:19) The word adelphos has a similar range of meanings in the New
Testament

Dr. William Smith's Bible Dictionary was originally written in 1884, and remains one of the most popular Bible dictionaries in the world. It contains information about people, places, customs, history, geography, and the textual content of the Bible. It is an essential reference book for studying the Scripture's subjects.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

BROTHER - /cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=2500g.rm /cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=2500g.rm

bruth'-er ('ach; adelphos = kin by birth, from the same parents or parent):

Used extensively in both Old Testament and New Testament of other relations and relationships, and expanding under Christ's teaching to include the universal brotherhood of man. Chiefly employed in the natural sense, as of Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:8); of Joseph and his brethren (Genesis 42:3); of Peter and Andrew, of James and John (Matthew 10:2). Of other relationships:

(1) Abram's nephew, Lot, is termed "brother" (Genesis 14:14);
(2) Moses' fellow-countrymen are "brethren" (Exodus 2:11; Acts 3:22; compare Hebrews 7:5);
(3) a member of the same tribe (2 Samuel 19:12);
(4) an ally (Amos 1:9), or an allied or cognate people (Numbers 20:14);
(5) used of common discipleship or the kinship of humanity (Matthew 23:8);
(6) of moral likeness or kinship (Proverbs 18:9);
(7) of friends (Job 6:15);
(8) an equal in rank or office (1 Kings 9:13);
(9) one of the same faith (Acts 11:29; 1 Corinthians 5:11);
(10) a favorite oriental metaphor used to express likeness or similarity (Job 30:29, "I am a brother to jackals");
(11) a fellow-priest or office-bearer (Ezra 3:2); Paul called Sosthenes "brother" (1 Corinthians 1:1) and Timothy his spiritual son and associate (2 Corinthians 1:1);
(12) a brother-man, any member of the human family (Matthew 7:3-5; Hebrews 2:17; 8:11; 1 John 2:9; 4:20);
(13) signifies spiritual kinship (Matthew 12:50);
(14) a term adopted by the early disciples and Christians to express their fraternal love for each other in Christ, and universally adopted as the language of love and brotherhood in His kingdom in all subsequent time (2 Peter 3:15; Colossians 4:7,9,15).

The growing conception of mankind as a brotherhood is the outcome of this Christian view of believers as a household, a family (Ephesians 2:19; 3:15; compare Acts 17:26). Jesus has made "neighbor" equivalent to "brother," and the sense of fraternal affection and obligation essential to vital Christianity, and coextensive with the world. The rabbis distinguished between "brother" and "neighbor," applying "brother" to Israelites by blood, "neighbor" to proselytes, but allowing neither title to the Gentiles. Christ and the apostles gave the name "brother" to all Christians, and "neighbor" to all the world (1 Corinthians 5:11; Luke 10:29). The missionary passion and aggressiveness of the Christian church is the natural product of this Christian conception of man's true relation to man.
Dwight M. Pratt

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, also known as the ISBE, is an exhaustive Biblical encyclopedia that explains in detail every significant word in the Bible, and also includes historical information from the Apocrypha. It provides detailed information on the language and literature of the Bible world, their cultures and the historical and religious environments of the people of the Bible in articles by nearly 200 scholars.

Nave's Topical Bible

Brother -/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=2500g.rm
• Signifies
• a relative,
Genesis 14:16; 29:12
• a neighbor
Deuteronomy 23:7; Judges 21:6; Nehemiah 5:7
• any Israelite
Jeremiah 34:9; Obadiah 1:10
• mankind
Genesis 9:5; Matthew 18:35; 1 John 3:15
• a companion
2 Samuel 1:26; 1 Kings 13:30; 20:33
• Love of
Proverbs 17:17; 18:24; Solomon 8:1
• Unfaithful
Proverbs 27:10
• Reuben’s love for Joseph
Genesis 37:21,22
• Joseph’s, for his brethren
Genesis 43:30-34; 45:1-5; 50:19-25
• A fraternal epithet, especially among Christians.
• Instituted by Christ
Matthew 12:50; 25:40; Hebrews 2:11,12
• Used by disciples
Acts 9:17; 21:20; Romans 16:23; 1 Corinthians 7:12; 2 Corinthians 2:13
• by Peter
1 Peter 1:22
• Used among the Israelites
Leviticus 19:17; Deuteronomy 22:1-4
• Brother’s widow.
• Law concerning Levirate marriage of
Deuteronomy 25:5-10; Matthew 22:24; Mark 12:19; Luke 20:28

King James Dictionary

BROTHER, n. plu. brothers or brethren. L. frater.
1. A human male born of the same father and mother. A male by one of the parents only is called a half-brother, or brother of the half blood.
2. Any one closely united; an associate; as a band of brothers.
3. One that resembles another in manners.
He that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster. Proverbs 18.

In scripture, the term brother is applied to a kinsman by blood more remote that a son of the same parents; as in the case of Abraham and Lot, Jacob and Laban. Persons of the same profession call each other brother, as judges, clergymen, professors of religion, members of societies united in a common cause, monks and the like.

Kings give to each other the title of brother.address their congregations by the title of brethren. In a more general sense, brother or brethren is used for man in general; all men being children of the same primitive ancestors, and forming one race of beings.

Brother-german is a brother by the father's and mother's side, in contradistinction to a uterine brother, or by the mother only.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 7 2005, 11:31 PM']wow, that's cool that he apologized
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Of course he used it as an opportunity to dig at my character. Oh well, no biggie either.

[thessalonian]

St. Collete unfortunately your post info isn't going to give her what she wants and we will never give her what she wants because they won't except adelphos as cousin by the circular reasoning that it is not found in the Bible for anyone who is a cousin because it means brother (literal from the same mother). Of course they will acknowledge brother by the same parent (Joseph such as it is) but they will not acknowledge that those in Mark 6:4 could be from Joseph's side of things, a completely legit position in catholicism. Further they will even list themselves a great variance of relationships that adelphos is used for but will not acknowledge that in a group of relatives that includes cousins, cousins could (as in the case of Mark 6:4) be spelled out specifically but adelphos can also be the broader term that can include cousins. They keep emphasizing cousins in this whole thing also. Yet that is not the Catholic positoin per se.

I would be interested in a study that shows how often or rare actual cousins are mentioned in scripture. I think it is very rare.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

Has anyone followed my arguement about Mark 6:4 and suggenes. Do you think it would be a contradiction for Mark to include suggenes (cousins or near kinsman) in those who did not have faith in Jesus home town and for Matthew not to include cousins or kinsmen? She tried to make the point, well Matt and Mark don't say do this in rememberence of me with regard to the last supper. My point is that they are leaving out not a detail of the same specific event but a part of the larger event. i.e. they don't have to include everything Jesus said and did (as John says they didn't at the end of his book) but when they are speaking of specific details of the events they need to match. It seems to me that in one case when one speaks of only brothers and another speaks of brothers and cousins that would be like Matt saying that Jesus used bread and wine at the last supper and Mark saying he used flour and grapes.

[thessalonian]

Now he is using his sloppy attention span on me, saying that I said adelphos is comonly used for cousin. Ya gotta be kidding. He is distorting what I said. Oh well.

[daugher-of-Mary]

Has anyone posted the writings of the Church Fathers'? It seems like you could go on forever with definitions, but since it could go either way, the person you are debating will only except her chosen definition.

[thessalonian]

I've gone the CF Route. They either reject them or are so narrow minded about the ones who dissent and the importance of such dissent. One of them has claimed he has a whole list of fathers who deny PV, yet has never produced it and only claims that his computer died when he was about to post it. I have asked him to redo it but he never has.

[phatcatholic]

generally speaking, the ECF's have little authority w/ them, so there's really no point in even bringing them up.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 8 2005, 12:23 PM']generally speaking, the ECF's have little authority w/ them, so there's really no point in even bringing them up.
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They will use and abuse them where they " support" their beliefs and ignore them when they don't.

[StColette]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Aug 8 2005, 06:40 AM']St. Collete unfortunately your post info isn't going to give her what she wants and we will never give her what she wants because they won't except adelphos as cousin by the circular reasoning that it is not found in the Bible for anyone who is a cousin because it means brother (literal from the same mother). Of course they will acknowledge brother by the same parent (Joseph such as it is) but they will not acknowledge that those in Mark 6:4 could be from Joseph's side of things, a completely legit position in catholicism. Further they will even list themselves a great variance of relationships that adelphos is used for but will not acknowledge that in a group of relatives that includes cousins, cousins could (as in the case of Mark 6:4) be spelled out specifically but adelphos can also be the broader term that can include cousins. They keep emphasizing cousins in this whole thing also. Yet that is not the Catholic positoin per se.

I would be interested in a study that shows how often or rare actual cousins are mentioned in scripture. I think it is very rare.
[/quote]

lol all the info I posted isn't going into that one post, it's different pieces for different posts. I'm just using my sis computer so I needed somewhere to put all the stuff I was finding and looking through. lol Believe me there is a method to my madness with the info I posted lol

[StColette]

[quote name='daugher-of-Mary' date='Aug 8 2005, 10:51 AM']Has anyone posted the writings of the Church Fathers'? It seems like you could go on forever with definitions, but since it could go either way, the person you are debating will only except her chosen definition.
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Been there posted that lol Even posted the Reformers like Luther, Calvin, etc. that they upheld the belief that Mary was Ever-Virgin. Even posted a quote in which Luther stated what the word adolphes meant in the Gospels when referring to Jesus' "brothers". Didn't get anywhere with them with those.

[StColette]

As for this whole cousin thing. I'm still trying to figure out how we got off on that since I didn't even mention cousins when I posted my first post. They're so used to Catholics using the argument of "cousins" that they didn't bother reading any other information that has been provided with the word "adolphes".

What I find interesting that several Protestant Lexicons, Dictionaries, and Encyclopedias are claiming that it can mean "cousin or near relation" when in fact KFBob said that it was never used in the Bible to refer to "cousin, aunt, uncle, etc." however if you look throughout the Old Testament you see the word "adolphes" used to refer to a relationship between unlces and nephews.

Now I've tried getting away from the cousin argument by pointing out the other information that I gave. Such as identifying the people considered Jesus' "brothers" as children of Mary of Clephas and an apostle of two.

Also one of the strongest arguments is considering Jewish custom when a widow would be intrusted to the care of her eldest son. If something should happen to that son then she would be placed in the care of the next oldest.

Now to counter this argument they'll say that Jesus didn't want to give His mother to a non-believer, if that was the case of His "brothers". But there is a Bible verse which states that it is better to be an unbeliever than to not take care of a widowed family member, I have the verse in a tract I wrote including the info about this Jewish law.

This is mostly me thinking out loud so ignore if ya want lol

God Bless,
Jen

[thessalonian]

Did you see where nolidad said that I said that adelphos was commonly used for cousin. Then when I asked him to show me where he said i was being nitpicky. Then he redistorted my words to say that I said that adelphose was commonly used for cousins, aunt's, uncles, etc. What I said was that ack or acc is commonly translated adelphos. That really shouldn't have been something to argue over I thought. But when they must distort what we say, it is clear who is not open to truth. Their whole arguement hinges around us saying tha it means cousin is the problem. That is the only thing that they think they can solidly defend. Thus they persist in distorting what we say for base gain.
Blessings