another problem with evil

[infinitelord1]

good couldnt have become good until there was something to compare it to...........evil. When did this all begin? Who knows............who knows if there is a god. But if there is a good and an evil.............i know all you phatmassers would say there is but without reason...............what is to come of evil? When the world ends...........does evil continue to exist? There would be no point in it. No point made by god if he allowed evil to exist. Unless, it is a never ending procedure. God why do you expect me to believe in you? I have no reason to.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 5 2005, 11:29 PM']good couldnt have become good until there was something to compare it to...........evil. When did this all begin? Who knows............who knows if there is a god. But if there is a good and an evil.............i know all you phatmassers would say there is but without reason...............what is to come of evil? When the world ends...........does evil continue to exist? There would be no point in it. No point made by god if he allowed evil to exist. Unless, it is a never ending procedure. God why do you expect me to believe in you? I have no reason to.
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Actually good isn't found by comparing it to evil, but evil can be found by looking at good...they way that works is evil is an absense.

To answer your questions would take me about 5 hours, but I'm willing to do it if you like.

[infinitelord1]

i wonder what it takes to believe in this stuff........... a lot of convincing of ones self or actual divine revelation. Please dont sit their and tell me that because you "almost" got into a car accident the other day, and it was because of god that you didnt. that stuff deosnt happen to everybody. could all be chance you know.

[HomeTeamFamily]

but how can you prove that its all by chance?

and i agree about the whole evil being an absence of good thing.....there would be nothing to be evil about if there was nothing good

if evil was considered the norm, then being good would be considered "evil" and thus evil would become "good"

make sense?

read mere christianity by cs lewis, i think it would be quite profitable for you

[jasJis]

infinite,
Evil exists because we choose to do other than what is Good. If we all are doing Good, evil will cease to exist. As long as we have free will, the "potential" for evil exists. "Evil" is not a sentinent being that exists, but is the status of a sentinent being that acts against Good. Consider who and what Lucifer is.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 6 2005, 01:19 AM']i wonder what it takes to believe in this stuff........... a lot of convincing of ones self or actual divine revelation. Please dont sit their and tell me that because you "almost" got into a car accident the other day, and it was because of god that you didnt. that stuff deosnt happen to everybody. could all be chance you know.
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The problem is, you can convince yourself that God doesnt exist, just as much as someone can convince themselves that he does.

You see, God doesnt always "supernaturally" help you. He can use natural occurances. Thats why if you just look around, you can see God's work everywhere.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 6 2005, 01:31 AM']but how can you prove that its all by chance?

and i agree about the whole evil being an absence of good thing.....there would be nothing to be evil about if there was nothing good

if evil was considered the norm, then being good would be considered "evil" and thus evil would become "good"

make sense?

read mere christianity by cs lewis, i think it would be quite profitable for you
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[/quote]
or our goal would be to be more of an evil person and to eventually go to hell. That brings another thing to mind............why would god create someone who is gonna go to hell. I hold god responsible for this person going to hell since he created him knowing this.

[qfnol31]

If you read Aquinas, he explains how that is possible, but how God doesn't "want" them to go to Hell.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 6 2005, 04:17 PM']If you read Aquinas, he explains how that is possible, but how God doesn't "want" them to go to Hell.
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but we are talking about the alll powerful all mighty god here.......they dont have to go to hell

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 6 2005, 11:29 PM']but we are talking about the alll powerful all mighty god here.......they dont have to go to hell
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Simple:

Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?

Do you renounce the deceit and corruption of evil?

Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?

Do you turn to Christ as Saviour?

Do you submit to Christ as Lord?

Do you come to Christ, the way, the truth and the life?



If time permits, read Matthew 13 too.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Aug 6 2005, 04:53 PM']Simple:

Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?

Do you renounce the deceit and corruption of evil?

Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?

Do you turn to Christ as Saviour?

Do you submit to Christ as Lord?

Do you come to Christ, the way, the truth and the life?
If time permits, read Matthew 13 too.
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people like me dont really find it that simple...........so you are saying we should follow all these guide lines (not knowing if there really is a god)?

[jasJis]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 6 2005, 04:14 PM']or our goal would be to be more of an evil person and to eventually go to hell. That brings another thing to mind............why would god create someone who is gonna go to hell. I hold god responsible for this person going to hell since he created him knowing this.
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[/quote]Foreknowledge is not pre-destination. We have free will. How can you hold God responsible?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='jasJis']"Evil" is not a sentinent being that exists, but is the status of a sentinent being that acts against Good. Consider who and what Lucifer is.[/quote]

I don't understand how you can say that the Devil is evil. All he did was disobey God... does that really make one evil?

"Acts against Good" of course means "acts against God". But God can do anything and still be considered good, because he can't go against himself.

God has killed and tortured great amount of people. That doesn't apparently make him evil. But when Devil doesn't do what God tells him to do, he's suddenly evil. Is that really fair? I mean, who wouldn't go against God in that situation?

Are you sure it's not the Evil you worship?

Edited August 7, 2005 by Semalsia

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 6 2005, 05:22 PM']people like me dont really find it that simple...........so you are saying we should follow all these guide lines (not knowing if there really is a god)?
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It is that simple. You will never find the "proof" you need until you start believing the proof you already have.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Aug 6 2005, 06:25 PM']Foreknowledge is not pre-destination.  We have free will.  How can you hold God responsible?
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i think it is.........it would have been better had they never been created. i didnt make the free-will choice to be created.

Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 6 2005, 07:13 PM']It is that simple. You will never find the "proof" you need until you start believing the proof you already have.
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there is no proof

[jasJis]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Aug 6 2005, 07:09 PM'][quote name='jasJis']"Evil" is not a sentinent being that exists, but is the status of a sentinent being that acts against Good. Consider who and what Lucifer is.[/quote]

I don't understand how you can say that the Devil is evil. All he did was disobey God... does that really make one evil?

"Acts against Good" of course means "acts against God". But God can do anything and still be considered good, because he can't go against himself.

God has killed and tortured great amount of people. That doesn't apparently make him evil. But when Devil doesn't do what God tells him to do, he's suddenly evil. Is that really fair? I mean, who wouldn't go against God in that situation?

Are you sure it's not the Evil you worship?
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[/quote]What's not fair? Give the the exact situation. What did God tell Lucifer to do that Luciver 'had' to refuse.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 6 2005, 07:44 PM']there is no proof
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Do you have any proof that there is no proof? If you insist that there is none, then there isnt any.

There is plenty of proof around, you just have to recognize it. God isnt going to just come down from heaven on a cloud and hand it to you. Continue to pray that the Lord increases you faith.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, "The light of faith makes us see what we believe."

[HomeTeamFamily]

[quote]or our goal would be to be more of an evil person and to eventually go to hell. That brings another thing to mind............why would god create someone who is gonna go to hell. I hold god responsible for this person going to hell since he created him knowing this. [/quote]

this is something i actually was just asking my friends about.....

and im hoping you can get the jist of what im saying because its going to be hard to type out and not see some potential problems with it but here goes, ill try to clairify

God wants us to love him freely. if everyone he created loved him perfectly and went to heaven, there would be no point in him creating us.....we would just be clones

free will allows us to distinguish ourselves from others and truly and freely love god as he intended for us to do

not doing this is what sends us to hell.....God doesnt do it, we choose hell by not loving as we should

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 6 2005, 10:07 PM']Do you have any proof that there is no proof? If you insist that there is none, then there isnt any. 

There is plenty of proof around, you just have to recognize it. God isnt going to just come down from heaven on a cloud and hand it to you. Continue to pray that the Lord increases you faith.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, "The light of faith makes us see what we believe."
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no i dont have proof as far as god not existing..........just as there is no proof that he exists. So why should i worry about the existence of god? Do i want god to exist? Yes. But as far as this arguement would take us......we would both end at the same conclusions. Honestly, i dont know if i want faith.............i dont know if i want to live. hmmmmmm......free will huh.

Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1