another problem with evil

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 7 2005, 12:28 AM']this is something i actually was just asking my friends about.....

and im hoping you can get the jist of what im saying because its going to be hard to type out and not see some potential problems with it but here goes, ill try to clairify

God wants us to love him freely.  if everyone he created loved him perfectly and went to heaven, there would be no point in him creating us.....we would just be clones

free will allows us to distinguish ourselves from others and truly and freely love god as he intended for us to do

not doing this is what sends us to hell.....God doesnt do it, we choose hell by not loving as we should
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How do you [b]know [/b]that god wants us to love him freely? You dont even [b]know[/b] if he exists. How do we [b]know[/b] if the decisions we make will lead us to eternal flame in hell?

Dont you see what i am saying here? we dont know anything. its all about beliefs. So the question is...........how do i choose to believe that there is a god? I see problems with the whole idea of evil. It just doesnt seem logical. It seems like ultimatelly there is no point for our existence. So what is this? A bet between satan and yahweh to see how many souls will sufffer and how many will prosper? Just doesnt seem like justice to me. Seems kind of unfair as far as we go.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:47 AM']no i dont have proof as far as god not existing..........just as there is no proof that he exists. So why should i worry about the existence of god? Do i want god to exist? Yes. But as far as this arguement would take us......we would both end at the same conclusions. Honestly, i dont know if i want faith.............i dont know if i want to live.
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Did Jesus come to earth? Did he die for us? Does he love us? Then you have your proof.

It is quite ignorant to say that there is no proof.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:53 AM']Did Jesus come to earth? Did he die for us? Does he love us? Then you have your proof.

It is quite ignorant to say that there is no proof.
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jesus' existence is not proof that there is a god. There have been many "messiahs" throughout history. how are we supposed to know which one is the true one........let alone if there is a true one. We dont [b]know[/b] if there is a god. Believe me........i would like to accept all this. I just dont [b]know [/b]how or why. Given the position im in..........as far as my homosexualtiy issue goes............i dont know how to believe in free will. As far as a reason for things happening goes..........i think the reason itself says that this is all predestination. Honestly i dont know a human being who would willingly go against the [b]known [/b]will of god. So its either........follow this thing called the bible or dont..............why not? We dont know.

Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Laudate_Dominum]

The most definitive proof is to live to Gospel.

“your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.” - 1 Cor 2:4

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 03:00 AM']The most definitive proof is to live to Gospel.

“your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.” - 1 Cor 2:4
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no human being is perfect........by god's standards. So nobody can live fully up to the gospel. we can try, but it is inevitable that we will fail.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The point was that true faith comes from encountering God in the Spirit, not arguments and stuff.

I am just thinking about if I was struggling with my faith, I don't think I would turn to debates, I would turn to Christ and entrust myself to His mercy. He sees our efforts based on the degree of temptation and of Grace that we have. Fidelity and trust are more important than perfection.

[jasJis]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 03:06 AM']no human being is perfect........by god's standards. So nobody can live fully up to the gospel. we can try, but it is inevitable that we will fail.
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[/quote]EXACTLY CORRECT !! Therein lies the begining of the answer you are seeking.

Intstinctively, we recognize Good and Evil and know they are opposed to each other.
You recognize the bad things happen to good people, and good things happen for bad people, seemingly, indiscriminately and unfairly.

Before we continue, two questions:
Am I right so far?
Do you recognize that our good/evil acts affect others?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:59 AM']jesus' existence is not proof that there is a god. There have been many "messiahs" throughout history. how are we supposed to know which one is the true one........let alone if there is a true one. We dont [b]know[/b] if there is a god. Believe me........i would like to accept all this. I just dont [b]know [/b]how or why. Given the position im in..........as far as my homosexualtiy issue goes............i dont know how to believe in free will. As far as a reason for things happening goes..........i think the reason itself says that this is all predestination. Honestly i dont know a human being who would willingly go against the [b]known [/b]will of god. So its either........follow this thing called the bible or dont..............why not? We dont know.
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Bud, I have been in the same boat as you. Just dont over analyze things.
We have been over this messiah thing on other boards, and all of the things atheists pump out is just word play. Its easy to make anyone or anything seem like it never existed. How do we know Julius Caesar existed?

We know the apostles existed, by their writings. You just need to have faith that what they speak of is true, since they were the ones who were with Jesus.

What I suggest is that you read some writings by saints. The saints knew that God existed, because in his infinite grace, he granted them so much wisdom and faith. Believe me, they knew a thing or two about God.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Good points. I would just stress that Faith, and the heart of the Christian life, is encountering God in Christ and living in that Presence. Without this living and personal experience, I can't imagine having faith. Faith and hope require trust, and you have to know Christ personally to love Him and thus truly have faith and trust in Him. This does not mean there are not times of darkness, but we should not let ourselves become so clouded that we forget all the miracles that God has worked in our souls and in our lives. These should sustain us.
Just as Christ worked wonders to build the faith of the Apostles and strengthen them for the times of darkness ahead. But even if we fail and fall we should not despair.
After the Apostles abandoned Christ in His Passion, and many doubted Him, He sought them out, risen from the dead, and His words were not condemnation but rather He greeted them saying, "Peace be with you".

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 7 2005, 01:24 PM']Bud, I have been in the same boat as you. Just dont over analyze things.
We have been over this messiah thing on other boards, and all of the things atheists pump out is just word play. Its easy to make anyone or anything seem like it never existed. How do we know Julius Caesar existed?

We know the apostles existed, by their writings. You just need to have faith that what they speak of is true, since they were the ones who were with Jesus.

What I suggest is that you read some writings by saints.  The saints knew that God existed, because in his infinite grace, he granted them so much wisdom and faith. Believe me, they knew a thing or two about God.
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its a fact that jesus of nazereth existed..........its not a fact who was who he said he was. Yea, ur right........its all about faith. Something that i certainly dont have much of. LOL........i have no reason to.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Aug 7 2005, 09:25 AM']EXACTLY CORRECT !!  Therein lies the begining of the answer you are seeking.

Intstinctively, we recognize Good and Evil and know they are opposed to each other.
You recognize the bad things happen to good people, and good things happen for bad people, seemingly, indiscriminately and unfairly.

Before we continue, two questions:
Am I right so far?
Do you recognize that our good/evil acts affect others?
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yea, we certainly designate things that afflict pain to be evil and things that make us feel happy to be good. This, however, differs from person to person. There is too many people out there that do things considered "evil" by others and they dont feel bad ffor it. In fact, they may very well be happy doing these things. Its like......as humans are evolving.......they are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on the belief in god. Its like the idea of god gives mankind a sense of security. I think that idea of evil makes no sense at all. Which kind of makes the idea of good nonsense also. Is good/evil an instinct? Do we designate things to be instinct since we believe in them? How do you know its a matter of instinct?

Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[HomeTeamFamily]

do you accept the scriptures for what they are or do you think they are just stories.....

if its the former, and i hope it is, then how can you explain thomas exclaiming "my Lord and my God" upon seeing Jesus after His ressurection? surely the other apostles would have said....thomas, thomas, thats not really God......right?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:11 PM']do you accept the scriptures for what they are or do you think they are just stories.....

if its the former, and i hope it is, then how can you explain thomas exclaiming "my Lord and my God" upon seeing Jesus after His ressurection?  surely the other apostles would have said....thomas, thomas, thats not really God......right?
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i dont know what to think of scripture since i dont know if there is a god. I think it is a histocrocal account of possible events that may have occured. If God confronted thomas why wont he confront me or anybody else these days?

[infinitelord1]

also let us not forget that the church and government used to be one. hmmmm........could it be that the government was trying to maintain order in society? Afterall, religion was introduced to the romans because the emporer didnt like the permiscuous life style his daughter was living and he looked around at his society and saw that they were permiscous also.

[HomeTeamFamily]

[quote]I think it is a histocrocal account of possible events that may have occured.[/quote]

so how do you know about anything that happend in the past.....world war 1 or 2........for example

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:06 PM']yea, we certainly designate things that afflict pain to be evil and things that make us feel happy to be good. This, however, differs from person to person. There is too many people out there that do things considered "evil" by others and they dont feel bad ffor it. In fact, they may very well be happy doing these things. Its like......as humans are evolving.......they are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on the belief in god. Its like the idea of god gives mankind a sense of security. I think that idea of evil makes no sense at all. Which kind of makes the idea of good nonsense also. Is good/evil an instinct? Do we designate things to be instinct since we believe in them? How do you know its a matter of instinct?
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Good and evil are not based on pleasure and pain, there is a certain relation, but the basis or objective morality is transcendent values which are to some degree perceivable in the structure of nature (ie., natural law).
Many times the good in a situation requires suffering, and the pleasurable scenario is objectively evil.
An extreme example would be Jeffery Dahmer (sp), who probably got pleasure out of murdering and canibalizing people, but this does not make it a good.
And on the other side of the coin, living the moral life involves regular sacrifices and often suffering in order to do the right thing.

"Humans are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on belief in God" ?? Interesting...
I see no evidence of humans becoming more intelligent. Certainly man has a more complete knowledge of many things, but we are also stupider at certain things. And I still see the same stupidity and barbarism of the ancient world, the main difference is we have more stuff and more distractions so that many people are so wrapped up in the cult of self and consumerism or the idolatry of human endeavor that they are pacified from the reality that without God life is absurd and meaningless. I wouldn't call it an increase in intelligence, I'd call it decadence and blind corruption.
And I think it's funny how in one argument athiests will say that belief in God is this terrible thing that makes people crazy and obsessed with going to hell and feeling judged at every moment, and then in another argument belief in God is portrayed as this fluffy, pat-on-the-back, feel good coping mechanism. It's just amusing to me.
Anyway, a superficial belief in God can include these types of things in some cases perhaps, but if you really think such a formula can encapsulate the lives and experiences of the saints I'm afraid you are terribly wrong. Belief in God, and the experience of God, are in fact vastly more profound and involved than anything that simple reductionism can account for. It is realizing and embracing the fundamental Mystery of all being. Not assuming that all of reality can be reduced to a few pithy statements that are ultimately absurd and don't really explain anything but only scratch the surface.
My impression is that if you really pursue science (pick one, physics, biology, mathematics, astronomy) to it's depths, you inevitably approach the impenetrable face of Mystery. This event horizon, as it were, can only be entered in the darkness of faith and the silent encounter with the Infinite. Words and images are no more.

[jasJis]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:06 PM']yea, we certainly designate things that afflict pain to be evil and things that make us feel happy to be good. This, however, differs from person to person. There is too many people out there that do things considered "evil" by others and they dont feel bad ffor it. In fact, they may very well be happy doing these things. Its like......as humans are evolving.......they are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on the belief in god. Its like the idea of god gives mankind a sense of security. I think that idea of evil makes no sense at all. Which kind of makes the idea of good nonsense also. Is good/evil an instinct? Do we designate things to be instinct since we believe in them? How do you know its a matter of instinct?
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[/quote]Let's keep it simple. Don't muddle your thinking by considering other people's judgement calls. You didn't answer my questions (except partially). Instead of jumping around to various arguments, stick with something. You can't answer a math question by randomly opening the book, nor can you answer your 'god' questions without order. The way you opened this thread, it seemed that you are claiming the existence of 'evil' made it logically impossible for the existence of a god. The preponderonce of evidence and reason makes it most likely and reasonable that there is a 'god'. Logic and reason further illuminates the nature of this 'being' or 'entity'. The most illogical and unreasonable conclusion is that of an aetheist. If you seriously want to answer your questions, start with one and follow your thoughts and others responses to a conclusion. Intellectual honesty is required.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:18 PM']also let us not forget that the church and government used to be one. hmmmm........could it be that the government was trying to maintain order in society? Afterall, religion was introduced to the romans because the emporer didnt like the permiscuous life style his daughter was living and he looked around at his society and saw that they were permiscous also.
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History renders this claim nonsensical.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:30 PM']Let's keep it simple.  Don't muddle your thinking by considering other people's judgement calls.  You didn't answer my questions (except partially).  Instead of jumping around to various arguments, stick with something.  You can't answer a math question by randomly opening the book, nor can you answer your 'god' questions without order.  The way you opened this thread, it seemed that you are claiming the existence of 'evil' made it logically impossible for the existence of a god.  The preponderonce of evidence and reason makes it most likely and reasonable that there is a 'god'.  Logic and reason further illuminates the nature of this 'being' or 'entity'.  The most illogical and unreasonable conclusion is that of an aetheist.  If you seriously want to answer your questions, start with one and follow your thoughts and others responses to a conclusion.  Intellectual honesty is required.
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i agree with most of what you are saying..........its more unreasonable to not believe in god than it is to believe in god. They are both unreasonable though. One might say that he/she has faith in no god. That is the only position that an atheist can logically hold. The something would be faith..........the nothing would be no god.

Its hard not to muddle my thinking by looking at the way other people live their lives. They say they are happy........why shouldnt i believe them? Whats wrong with happiness? nothing right? I firlmly believe that they are not demons from hell. The devil doesnt create.......he destroys. So the devil didnt create demons in flesh and blood to roam the earth. Gays, murderers, child molestors, etc. are not demons by any means. They dont feel right or wrong for doing what they do..........they just do it. Gays claiim they feel right for what they are doing. I believe them. Its more reasonable to believe what they are saying than it is to believe there is a god. The whole idea of these things we call evil just doesnt make any sense. Would you send these people to hell if you had the power to? I dont think anybody really wants anybody to go to hell. As a matter of fact......they wouldnt allow it if they had the power. Its all predestination.......god created them knowing they would be doomed right?

Sorry if i didnt answer every one of your quiestions perhaps you should list them and i will answer each one from the list. I know somebody listed like 2 quiestions and i thought i answered them all.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:26 PM']so how do you know about anything that happend in the past.....world war 1 or 2........for example
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better methods of documenting history has evolved over the years. Newspapers, media, books......etc. The history of jesus of nazereth was written until years after his death. That means that it was passed down by word of mouth. We all know what happens with this. Take a 100 people........line them up single file..........tell the first person to pass a message to the person behind him and also to tell that person to pass the message. By the time it gets to the end it is slightly changed..........why?.........well some people cant hear as good as others some just want to change the message for the fun of it. Imagine something like this over a period of 50-100 years.