Joel Osteen

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I was flipping through the channels and ran across Joel Osteen..actually he was on 3 different channels at the same time, different events.

I cant help but be jealous of the crowd he brings in.

If you dont know he brings in about 35,000 people every Sunday.

Besides the Vatican, when does a Catholic Church bring that many people in on a constant basis?

If we dont, then why dont we?

I am to blame too, but I feel sad about this because our Parish seems to be loosing people, not gaining. Why are people leaving instead of joining?

What do you think we can do differently? Honestly. Something can be done.

I sat and listened to him for about 10 minutes.

I didnt have a problem at all with the message he was sending. It was truthful and to the point. He was well spoken and spoke directly to the people, and it wasnt about money.

Honestly, I have am going to start going to another Parish soon. The 'Once Orthodox, Awesome' Parish I bragged about became a Parish where you dont see a Mass with the normal Priests anymore, rather there are foreign Priests that you cannot understand because their accent is too thick.

Not that there is anything wrong with this, Mass is a Sacrifice and I still go..but I wonder where the other two Priests are and why they cant help with Communion (instead of having way too many ExtraOrdinary Ministers) or hold a Mass.

So whats the problem?

I love the Church, and still defend Her everyday. But I feel the Church in America is going south.

My humble opinion of course.

God Bless

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Aug 8 2005, 01:00 PM']I was flipping through the channels and ran across Joel Osteen..actually he was on 3 different channels at the same time, different events.

I cant help but be jealous of the crowd he brings in.

If you dont know he brings in about 35,000 people every Sunday.

Besides the Vatican, when does a Catholic Church bring that many people in on a constant basis?

If we dont, then why dont we?

I am to blame too, but I feel sad about this because our Parish seems to be loosing people, not gaining. Why are people leaving instead of joining?

What do you think we can do differently? Honestly. Something can be done.

I sat and listened to him for about 10 minutes.

I didnt have a problem at all with the message he was sending. It was truthful and to the point. He was well spoken and spoke directly to the people, and it wasnt about money.

Honestly, I have am going to start going to another Parish soon. The 'Once Orthodox, Awesome' Parish I bragged about became a Parish where you dont see a Mass with the normal Priests anymore, rather there are foreign Priests that you cannot understand because their accent is too thick.

Not that there is anything wrong with this, Mass is a Sacrifice and I still go..but I wonder where the other two Priests are and why they cant help with Communion (instead of having way too many ExtraOrdinary Ministers) or hold a Mass.

So whats the problem?

I love the Church, and still defend Her everyday. But I feel the Church in America is going south.

My humble opinion of course.

God Bless
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[/quote]

I am sure I will get some flack for this, but the reason he draws so many people is because if you listen to his message, he never directly speaks about Jesus. He speaks about God a whole lot, and has a huge globe circling in the background, but his message is not Christian. He is drawing so many people, because he wants numbers and those numbers are those types of people that will listen to his generalities, but never actually being specific. Take a listen to his message again, and see what he says, how he says it, and ask yourself if you would be drawn closer to Christ or just feel good and be happy to know about your choice of God.

My .02, of course, take 'em for what their worth.

God Bless

[Guest Eremite]

Also, consider that his whole ministry revolves around him.

When there are a lot of Catholics in one area, we don't build one huge Church so they can be with one priest. We build new parishes.

He doesn't do that.

As for why the Church has been losing people, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Orthodoxy breeds life. When the local Church is heterodox, it stifles the vitality of the faith.

Nevertheless, the Holy Father has spoken of a shrinking Church as a powerful thing. Though numerically smaller, that core will blossom, like the martyrs in the catacombs.

[dspen2005]

I read an article about him ... and it may have been on phatmass. He is a guy who basically is a motivational speaker. From what I understand, most of his sermons are short on Scripture and alot on psychological insights on being more motivated, more outgoing, being better leaders, etc... basically, his services are "make-me-feel-good sessions"

[CatholicAndFanatical]

you are probably correct. In fact those 10 minutes I was listening, he really didnt mention God or Jesus.

He was talking about making the most of your day, how this day can be your last so make sure you live it to the fullest and besure to hug your kids and do good things this day.

Good message, but you are right.still no mention of Jesus there.

hmm..thanks for saying that

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]As for why the Church has been losing people, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Orthodoxy breeds life. When the local Church is heterodox, it stifles the vitality of the faith.

Nevertheless, the Holy Father has spoken of a shrinking Church as a powerful thing. Though numerically smaller, that core will blossom, like the martyrs in the catacombs.
[/quote]

I agree and this is definitly whats going to happen. But I hope a small Church can survive here in America.

The Holy Father mentioned somewhere (at least he was quoted in saying) that the Church in the West is dying.

But you are correct, we definitly shot ourselves in the foot.

From lax Seminaries to shuffling of Priests..

Im still trying to remember the last time our Priest held a Homily on the awesomeness of the Eucharist or the need for Confession.

I mean, he's talked about it but its usually at night when he holds 'Talks' and its volunteery to show up.


[quote]He is a guy who basically is a motivational speaker. From what I understand, most of his sermons are short on Scripture and alot on psychological insights on being more motivated, more outgoing, being better leaders, etc... basically, his services are "make-me-feel-good sessions"
[/quote]

It was motivational alright..but that shouldnt be the focus.

I didnt make the connection till just now.

IM a little slow on Mondays

[Paladin D]

Being a motivational speaker and encouraging people is really needed today, unfortunately though, it isn't something that really helps Christians define their religious beliefs or morals.

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='Aug 8 2005, 12:05 PM']I am sure I will get some flack for this, but the reason he draws so many people is because if you listen to his message, he never directly speaks about Jesus. He speaks about God a whole lot, and has a huge globe circling in the background, but his message is not Christian. He is drawing so many people, because he wants numbers and those numbers are those types of people that will listen to his generalities, but never actually being specific. Take a listen to his message again, and see what he says, how he says it, and ask yourself if you would be drawn closer to Christ or just feel good and be happy to know about your choice of God.

My .02, of course, take 'em for what their worth.

God Bless
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I agree with you 100%. Joel tends to be more psychological. I think he has an appeal because he offers a remedy to "overcome" many common issues that his "flock" is facing, such as negative thinking.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I want the Summit back!

That was the name of the building that his so-called "church" now inhabits.

It was a nice place to see concerts, the circus and the Rockets.

Of course now the Rockets have their own REALLY nice place to play.

But the building formerly known as the Summit has been done a great dis-service by these feel-goodians.


The only consolation I can take in the whole affair is that way back in 1994 (before I came back to the Church), I went and saw Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson there on Halloween.

It's the evil side of me that takes some sick pleasure in that.

Really you can't even say it's ironic (or whatever the proper word would be) because it's Joel Olsteen's Oasis of Love (self-love if you ask me) rather than a gathering to praise the Almighty. Since he does hardly mention God in the whole mix.

And as far as a motivational speaker... I believe I was more moved by Kenny Loggins doing a benefit concert for sick children when I went and saw him at the Summit than I ever will be moved by Joel.

Nobody is that truly happy all the time (well, he does make a lot of money....)






Wow. I am cynical.





I guess it's fair to say I feel strongly about this. It's abhorrent to me.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Oh yeah I knew there was something else....




And I'm really really ticked at the yahoo's in the Houston city council who decided to lease the building to that "church".... isn't there supposed to be separation of "church" and state?


I guarantee you that if the Galveston-Houston Diocese had tried to lease that building every protester in the world would have been all over that - and it would never have happened at even twice the price...

but in comes Lakewood Church - oh feel sorry for us because some people don't like us but we're really good people - and the city darn near bent over backwards for them!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH there are not enough clean expressions to represent my anger!

Edited August 8, 2005 by Kilroy the Ninja

[homeschoolmom]

wow!

[sweetpea316]

For real. I saw an interview of him on tv once and the whole thing just baffles me.

[Cam42]

Here are some interesting thoughts about Joel Osteen and his "ministry."

Joel Osteen has absolutely no biblical training or experience to be a pastor. Charismatic pulpits are filled with people who feel “called” to the pastorate and that is enough for them and those who follow them. They attempt to build congregations on the “strength” of their calling. Some charismatic leaders may go on to some unaccredited “Bible School” for a year or two, none (which encompasses a large group of ministers) that we were ever acquainted with attended any legitimate seminary.

Would you allow a surgeon to operate on you because he felt “called” to be a surgeon as a child, but never went on to medical school? Or would you allow someone to build your house who firmly believed God had called him to be an architect yet had never gone on to college to study architectural design? Of course not, it would be the height of foolishness!

Yet millions of professing Christians are more than willing to follow a man (or woman) who says “God” has called them and has supernaturally equipped them to be ministers. These especially anointed men and women have no need to study Church history, hermeneutics, systematic theology and struggle through Greek and Hebrew as other ministers do. They hear directly from God (this is especially true for the sign-gift pastors, most seeker-sensitive churches are led by seminary educated individuals).

[quote name='Charisma Magazine' date=' Jun 2004. pg 44']Osteen’s upbeat style is deliberate and authentic. ‘Make church relevant,’ he says. ‘Give them something to be able to take away.  I find today people are not looking for theology.  There’s a place for it, [But] in your everyday life you need to know how to live.[/quote]

To be a success in marketing you have to know where people itch and scratch it. Or, you have to create a desire in them by creating a hunger for something they currently do not have nor formerly knew they needed. All commercials can be condensed down to one of these two truths.

So to become a mega-church a pastor has to make church relevant. He has to give the people what they want, something that soothes that spiritual itch. In order to be a “success” (i.e. large masses of people and money) pastors must preach unchallenging messages that uplift rather than convict. He must pander to the lowest common denominator and make sure that whatever is taught does not offend anymore at anytime. What we are seeing is really nothing new, it is a simply fulfillment of:

[quote name='2 Timothy 4:3-4']For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:  And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.[/quote]

If you think that I am being a bit harsh, let me remind you that theology simply means “the knowledge of God.” In essence Osteen has said that people are really not interested in learning about God. Somehow (undoubtedly due to his lack of biblical education) he has made a disconnect between knowing the God of the Bible via sound biblical theology and “knowing how to live.”

Lakewood and all seeker congregations do not want to be associated with any denominational trappings or any forms of liturgical worship. Many of these churches have even removed crosses from behind their pulpits lest they appear to be too churchy to the seeker. It is interesting as hard as they have tried to distance themselves from established “traditional” forms of Christian worship they have created their own liturgies of a sort. They have banners which are marched around, they have praise dancers (we called them “Glory Dancers”). They have alter calls, and other aspects which have become standard practices and thus traditions.

The above are excerpts from Rev. Robert Liichow.

Look at this from the CNN archives:

Larry King: "Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't."

Joel Osteen: "Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but I don't ever do anything..."

Larry King: "What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?"

Joel Osteen: "You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know..."

Larry King: "If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?"

Joel Osteen: "Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus."

(Joel Osteen, "Larry King live," Aired June 20, 2005)

Note: Joel Osteen has just denied his calling as a pastor and a minister of Christ. A man that cannot bring himself to say that Jesus is the only way to heaven should resign from the ministry (John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5; Acts 4:12)

Larry King: "Is -- have you always believed?"

Joel Osteen: "I have always believed. I grew up, you know, my parents were a good Christian people. They showed us love in the home. My parents were the same in the pulpit as they were at home. I think that's where a lot of preachers' kids get off base sometimes. Because they don't see the same things at both places. But I've always believed. I saw it through my parents. And I just grew up believing."

(Joel Osteen, "Larry King live," Aired June 20, 2005)

Note: Joel says, "I've always believed." That's impossible! There has to have been a time in your life when you made a decision to repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your savior, according to Protestant thought. If we take Joel Osteen's words to millions of viewers of the Larry King show at face value it is impossible for him to even be a Christian, according to Protestant thought.

Larry King: "How about issues that the church has feelings about? Abortion? Same-sex marriages?"

Joel Osteen: "Yeah. You know what, Larry? I don't go there. I just ..."

Larry King: "You have thoughts, though."

Joel Osteen: "I have thoughts. I just, you know, I don't think that a same-sex marriage is the way God intended it to be. I don't think abortion is the best. I think there are other, you know, a better way to live your life. But I'm not going to condemn those people. I tell them all the time our church is open for everybody."

(Joel Osteen, "Larry King live," Aired June 20, 2005)

Note: "I don't think abortion is the best." That is the understatement of the century! Abortion is murder and every sincere and orthodox Christian knows this.

Makes ya wanna think, huh?????

I agree with 99% of this....and I agree with Theologian in Training:

[quote name='Theologian in Training'] am sure I will get some flack for this, but the reason he draws so many people is because if you listen to his message, he never directly speaks about Jesus. He speaks about God a whole lot, and has a huge globe circling in the background, but his message is not Christian. He is drawing so many people, because he wants numbers and those numbers are those types of people that will listen to his generalities, but never actually being specific. Take a listen to his message again, and see what he says, how he says it, and ask yourself if you would be drawn closer to Christ or just feel good and be happy to know about your choice of God.

My .02, of course, take 'em for what their worth.

God Bless[/quote]

[dUSt]

Well, I'm sure that if we got rid of every church in the Houston diocese and made them all cram into one building for mass every Sunday the crowd would be just as big. Oh yeah, and then have the priest who gives the most exciting homilies be the main celebrant every week. That should work too.

Man, I wish the Dallas/Ft Worth area would do this. I can't begin to imagine how holy it will make me feel when walking up the escalators to find my seat in section 205, row B, seat 8.

[toledo_jesus]

my experience has been that you can fill up a stadium with people who don't want to be challenged.