Prayer

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

Hi , all of Phatmass mates

I just want to know the answer and consequences of the two following questions :

1-What is the definition of “prayer”?

2-Do you pray? How And Why?

Thank you

Accept my rememberances .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

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Those who are interested in reading about my religion:

www.thetruereligion.org

Edited November 21, 2003 by ayed

[hyperdulia again]

prayer--talking to god. asking saints to talk to god with you.

why--prayer does not change god, but it does change us. it helps us grow more like him.

[hyperdulia again]

how--in christianity the how doesn't realy matter, out loud, to yourself, it doesn't matter. standing, sitting, kneeling, riding a bike.

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

if you are truly interested in learning more about catholic prayer, i HIGHLY suggest that you read the following articles:

Section 8: Prayer

Section 9: The Lord's Prayer

these are two sections in a 10-section series written by the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic lay fraternity) entitled "How Catholics Pray." They are easy to read and very informative. furthermore, they follow along w/ the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and so you know that they represent orthodox Catholic belief.

i sincerely hope that you will read them, and that you will learn much from them.

pax christi,

nick

ps: both of these articles are in pdf format, so u need Acrobat Reader to view them.

[God Conquers]

Communicating with Our Lord.

How? Silently, on my knees, standing, singing, reading scripture etc.

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

did u read the two articles i suggested in my earlier post? what did u think about them? let me know....

pax christi,

nick

[vianney]

how--in christianity the how doesn't realy matter, out loud, to yourself, it doesn't matter. standing, sitting, kneeling, riding a bike.

The Catholic Church believes some prayer needs a certain form. The mass needs to be done a certain way. It is appropriate to kneel as a sign of reverance before the Lord. etc etc

At least this is what they are tellling me in the seminary and i highly doubt an arcbishop who is friends with JP2 would be wrong. Certainly you can pray while you ride a bike but it is important to get in a holy hour before the lord in front of the lord if possible.

[vianney]

and yes EVERY day

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

Prayer is the lifting of one's mind and soul to God.

Yes! I pray. I love the Rosary and Mass. I also pray the Liturgy of the hours, which kickas @$$!

[nikkan_hanil]

Another form of good prayer is spiritual meditation and confirmation.

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

Phatmass members , how you doing?

Thank you for your responses .

A-Don’t you see that prayer is a kind of worship, Isn’t it?

B-Isn’t it a personal relation between a creature and his Creator?

Accept my rememberances .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[ayed]

Up , for more comments

Edited November 24, 2003 by ayed

[geetarplayer]

ayed, it is great to see you again on this message board! I am always glad to read your point of view on these kinds of topics.

To me, prayer is simply a conversation with God. Prayer can consist of several different topics. You can be asking God for help in your life or someone else's life. You can be thanking Him for the blessings He has given you. You can be asking forgiveness for a wrong doing you may have done. You can pray for many different reasons. The main reason should be because you want to stay in touch... like you want to stay in touch with a friend or family member. You talk to them, say how things are doing, ask them for help maybe, or thank them for a gift they gave you. Just talking with God is what I think prayer is.

-Mark

[ayed]

Thank you Geetarplayer.

Exactly so, as you have mentioned.

My new question is :

"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place"(Luke 11:1)

Why Jesus(peace be upon him) would pray?

Thank you

Ayed4all@hotmail.com

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

My new question is :

"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place"(Luke 11:1)

Why Jesus(peace be upon him) would pray?

ok pham, please correct me if i'm wrong (delving into the Trinity always gets a little confusing) but i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today: to give thanks and glory to God. Jesus, while entirely divine, was also entirely human. while Jesus is God, he is different in Person from the Father. As the Second Person in the Holy Trinity and the begotten Son of the Father, He was singularly devoted to the Father. Also, although he never sinned, he was tempted just as we are. Although he utlimately always followed the will of the Father, He sought guidance just as we do. This does not imply that he was ever unaware of the right thing to do. But, i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

some say that, in the times when Jesus is praying, that this is actually his human nature praying to his divine nature. but, i think this could be a dangerous way to understand Jesus in prayer. i don't think the two natures of Christ can be divided in such a way. Jesus's perfect, 100% humanity and his perfect, 100% divinity combine to form one Person, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity. i think that, to divide his natures in such a way is to lessen one or the other, or to take away from the unity of His Personhood.

all of this is very complicated, and i'm not even sure if i entirely understand it. again, if i am incorrect in my theology, someone please let me know. others may also be able to answer this question more concretely.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Edited November 25, 2003 by phatcatholic

[geetarplayer]

ayed, I see what you have been getting at. Very interesting line of questioning! B)

-Mark

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope all Phatmass members and readers are in good conditiond

(Phatcatholic) :”i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today to give thanks and glory to God “.

1-(Ayed) :So, Jesus is a human being like us whorships his Creator Who has chosen him as a prophet which entails that Jesus is not a God .

(Phatcatholic)” Jesus is God”

2-(Ayed):How come a God pray to a God ?

(Phatcathoilc):” the begotten Son of the Father”

3-(Ayed) Do you mean that Allah(the Father) married to the Virgin Maryam?Or do you mean that Allah has begotten Jesus(Allah above all that is said)?Could you please shed some light on this issue ?(Phatcatholic):”He was singularly devoted to the Father”

4-(Ayed): Jesus is definitly submissive to His Creator , Allah .So, Jesus is a dependent and in need of Allah .Thus, Jesus is not a God .

(phatcatholic):”although he never sinned, he was tempted just as we are”

5-(Ayed) :If so, then why did he pray ?

(phatcatholic):”…Although he utlimately always followed the will of the Father, He sought guidance just as we do.

6-(Ayed) : I do agree with you on this point that Jesus does seek guidance just as we do .Thus, Jesus not a God at all.

(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

7-(Ayed)You are frankly stating that Jesus is as you and me not a God since he does ask for strength from Allah.Consequently, Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah.

(Phatcatholic):”some say that, in the times when Jesus is praying, that this is actually his human nature praying to his divine nature.

8-(Ayed): You said”some say that” which is not your own opinion, is it?

Kindly, read the following which you have mentioned above :

“ …his human nature praying to his divine nature” apparently contradicts with “he utlimately always followed the will of the Father”?

How come? Self-deification!?Did Jesus pray to himself?Did he seek for strength from himself?

(Phatcatholic)”but, i think this could be a dangerous way to understand Jesus in prayer. i don't think the two natures of Christ can be divided in such a way”

9-(Ayed) :Mr.Phatcatholic, did Jesus declare that he is of associated two natures?Or did Allah(the Father in your doctrine) state that Jesus is of associated two natures ?Kinly, quote any verse of your holy books to prove this issue?

(Phatcatholic):”Jesus's perfect, 100% humanity and his perfect, 100% divinity combine to form one Person, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity”

10-(Ayed): You are about to attach Jesus to the holonym”Trinity” , are not you?

If Jesus is of a divine form and never sins , then why does he pray?

Facts: It stands to reason and is really accepted that when one is praying , then this pray is a type of adoration .Since Jesus does pray , glorify and seek strength from Allah , then this entails that Jesus is really a prophet , one of Allah’s submissive creatures.

Accept my rememberances .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

Edited November 27, 2003 by ayed

[sista2b]

ayed,

i don't think this has been pointed out maybe it has and i missed it, but you asked if prayer was the same as worship. Not always. We pray to saints, but we don't worship them, we ask them to pray for us. We know they are close to God, if we wanna get in good w/ someone we talk to thier friends and sometimes thier mom (Mary), moms tend to be pretty convincing.

But, when we pray to God, then yes we do worship Him of course.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!!

[Aloysius]

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite. 3 times infinity equals infinity. One Infinite God times three persons equals one infinite God.

Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is.

and Jesus spoke to His Heavenly Father, because Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father, yet they are both the same. He is full God and full man. All men are given a guardian angel, yet no angel could preside over God, and thus the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus, while the Holy Spirit is God and not angel. Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him. While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words, as Christ had taken on humanity and was lifting it up. Jesus is one with the Father, the Father is one with the Spirit, the Spirit is one with Jesus, etc. etc. etc. Yet all three are distinct. They are coequal, as far as i'm concerned they're all "Allah". When translating who God is to our religion, we wouldn't say the Father is Allah, then Jesus is a God and the Spirit is a God, we would say all three are one in the same Allah, the great Yahweh I AM, the definition of existence, the definition of Love.

As God has always existed, for He is the great I AM, and also God is love, before He created all things He must have loved something. THerefore, becuase of the very definition of God, He has always existed in at least two persons, the Father infinitely loving the Son, and the Son infinitely loving the Father. Because if that were not true at some point God, who is always the same, would have had nothing to Love <unless He had some sort of selfish love, yet selfishness would be sinful, and God is immaculate, perfect, SINLESS>. And so those two persons, by the very nature of God, must have existed. and they must have infinitely loved each other. that infinite love between them is so strong that it in itself is a new person, the Holy Spirit.

now that i've gone through my little talk about the Holy Trinity, i'll say it again. While the Son was human, He expressed His infinite Love for His Father through His divinity as He has done from before all things came to be, and He also expressed His infinite Love for His Father through His humanity, through Human words.

Praying is loving God. It can take the form of offering yourself to God, worshipping God, talking to God, and/or just soaking in the presence of God.

God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father. THerefore God the Son is always praying to God the Father. God the Father infinitely loves God the Son, therefore God the Father is always praying to God the Son. This love is always expressed through the Divine Persons, both infinitely the same, and infinitely distinct. Yet God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human.

hope that helps. if it doesn't, maybe i'll draw a diagram. B)

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

i'll try the best i can to answer ur questions, as follows:

(Phatcatholic) :”i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today to give thanks and glory to God “.

1-(Ayed) :So, Jesus is a human being like us whorships his Creator Who has chosen him as a prophet which entails that Jesus is not a God .

one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human. secondly, just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do. prayer does not always entail worship. prayer also shows love, and the Father and the Son love each other with eternal abundance. thirdly, nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Phatcatholic)” Jesus is God”

2-(Ayed):How come a God pray to a God ?