Prayer

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

i'll try the best i can to answer ur questions, as follows:

(Phatcatholic) : i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today to give thanks and glory to God.

1-(Ayed) :So, Jesus is a human being like us whorships his Creator Who has chosen him as a prophet which entails that Jesus is not a God .

one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human. secondly, just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do. prayer does not always entail worship. prayer also shows love, and the Father and the Son love each other with eternal abundance. thirdly, nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Phatcatholic)” Jesus is God”

2-(Ayed):How come a God pray to a God ?

logistically, the only explanation i can give is in itself quite complicated. it is basically this: even tho the Father is God and the Son is God, they are two different Persons in the Holy Trinity and are therefore able to pray to one another. as to why they would pray to each other, Alo explains this well. I also hold to my conclusion that Jesus, in his perfect humanity, is justified in and able to pray to the Father for strength.

(Phatcathoilc):” the begotten Son of the Father”

3-(Ayed) Do you mean that Allah(the Father) married to the Virgin Maryam?Or do you mean that Allah has begotten Jesus(Allah above all that is said)?Could you please shed some light on this issue ?

I don't know a "Virgin Maryam." If you are referring to the Virgin Mary, she is the Mother of God, Jesus. However, she is not married to the Father. As to what it means to be "begotten" i turn to the Fathers of the Church, who explain it much more efficiently than I:

Justin Martyr

"God begot before all creatures a beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son

. . . sometimes Lord and Word. . . . We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61 [A.D. 155]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Lactantius

"When we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate them, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father, since the name of ‘Father’ cannot be given without the Son, nor can the Son be begotten without the Father. . . . [T]hey both have one mind, one spirit, one substance; but the former [the Father] is as it were an overflowing fountain, the latter [the Son] as a stream flowing forth from it. The former as the sun, the latter as it were a ray [of light] extended from the sun" (Divine Institutes 4:28–29 [A.D. 307]).

for more of the Church Fathers on "the only begotten Son," go here.

(Phatcatholic):”He was singularly devoted to the Father”

4-(Ayed): Jesus is definitly submissive to His Creator , Allah .So, Jesus is a dependent and in need of Allah .Thus, Jesus is not a God .

The Son can be devoted to the Father w/o being "submissive." The Father and the Son are dependent on each other in the sense that if one Person ceases to be, the others cease to be --and-- b/c everything the Son has comes from the Father. However, Jesus is NOT dependent on the Father in the sense that he is inferior to Him. They are both God

(phatcatholic):”although he never sinned, he was tempted just as we are”

5-(Ayed) :If so, then why did he pray ?

You don't have to be a sinner in order to pray. Mary and the Saints, who are in heaven and therefore sinless, pray to God on our behalf. Actually, some say (and i would agree, that i know not if this is official doctrine) that everyone who is in heaven, and therefore sinless, is in a constant state of prayer and worship to God.

(phatcatholic):”…Although he utlimately always followed the will of the Father, He sought guidance just as we do.

6-(Ayed) : I do agree with you on this point that Jesus does seek guidance just as we do .Thus, Jesus not a God at all.

like i said earlier, i think it is plausable to say that Jesus prayed to the Father for Guidance w/o concluding that He is not God. Although his is perfectly God, he is also perfectly human, and therefore subject to temptation. This could be a cause to seek guidance or strength. But, this is no way negates his equality w/ the Father.

(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

7-(Ayed)You are frankly stating that Jesus is as you and me not a God since he does ask for strength from Allah.Consequently, Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah.

As i said before, i don't necessarily agree that yours is the logical conclusion.

(Phatcatholic):”some say that, in the times when Jesus is praying, that this is actually his human nature praying to his divine nature.

8-(Ayed): You said”some say that” which is not your own opinion, is it? Kindly, read the following which you have mentioned above: “ …his human nature praying to his divine nature” apparently contradicts with “he utlimately always followed the will of the Father”? How come? Self-deification!?Did Jesus pray to himself?Did he seek for strength from himself?

You are correct in assuming that this is not my "opinion"--or better put, i would not explain it this way, like some try to do. Also, my disagreement w/ this statement does not come from the "apparent contradiction" that you see. it instead comes from the implied division of Jesus's two natures (the human praying to the divine). This division, of course, can never be since Jesus is both human and divine in perfect unity.

(Phatcatholic)”but, i think this could be a dangerous way to understand Jesus in prayer. i don't think the two natures of Christ can be divided in such a way”

9-(Ayed) :Mr.Phatcatholic, did Jesus declare that he is of associated two natures?Or did Allah(the Father in your doctrine) state that Jesus is of associated two natures ?Kinly, quote any verse of your holy books to prove this issue?

below is an excerpt from the "Incarnation" entry in the newadvent.org online Catholic encyclopedia. its gives the witness both from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition on the "hypostatic union"--or-- the perfect unity of Jesus' human and divine natures:

A. The Witness of Holy Writ

St. John says: "The Word was made flesh" (i, 14), that is, He Who was God in the Beginning (i, 2), and by Whom all things were created (i. 3), became Man. According to the testimony of St. Paul, the very same Person, Jesus Christ, "being in the form of God [en morphe Theou hyparxon] . . . emptied himself, taking the form of a servant [morphen doulou labon]" (Phil., ii, 6, 7). It is always one and the same Person, Jesus Christ, Who is said to be God and Man, or is given predicates that denote Divine and human nature. The author of life (God) is said to have been killed by the Jews (Acts, iii, 15); but He could not have been killed were He not Man.

B. Witness of Tradition

The early forms of the creed all make profession of faith, not in one Jesus Who is the Son of God and in another Jesus Who is Man and was crucified, but "in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, Who became Man for us and was crucified". The forms vary, but the substance of each creed invariably attributes to one and the same Jesus Christ the predicates of the Godhead and of man (see Denzinger, "Enchiridion"). Franzelin (thesis xvii) calls special attention to the fact that, long before the heresy of Nestorius, according to Epiphanius (Ancorat., II, 123, in P. G., XLII, 234), it was the custom of the Oriental Church to propose to catechumens a creed that was very much more detailed than that proposed to the faithful; and in this creed the catechumens said: "We believe . . . in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father . . . that is, of the substance of the Father . . . in Him Who for us men and for our salvation came down and was made Flesh, that is, was perfectly begotten of Mary ever Virgin by the Holy Spirit; Who became Man, that is, took perfect human nature, soul and body and mind and all whatsoever is human save only sin, without the seed of man; not in another man, but unto himself did He form Flesh into one holy unity [eis mian hagian henoteta]; not as He breathed and spoke and wrought in the prophets, but He became Man perfectly; for the Word was made Flesh, not in that It underwent a change nor in that It exchanged Its Divinity for humanity, but in that It united Its Flesh unto Its one holy totality and Divinity [eis mian . . . heautou hagian teleioteta te kai theoteta].' "The one holy totality", Franzelin considers, means personality, a person being an individual and complete subject of rational acts. This creed of the catechumens gives even the Divinity of the totality, i. e. the fact that the individual Person of Jesus is a Divine and not a human Person. Of this intricate question we shall speak later on.

The witness of tradition to the fact of the union of the two natures in the one Person of Jesus is clear not only from the symbols or creeds in use before the condemnation of Nestorius, but also from the words of the ante-Nicaean Fathers. We have already given the classic quotations from St. Ignatius the Martyr, St. Clement of Rome, St. Justin the Martyr, in all of which are attributed to the one Person, Jesus Christ, the actions or attributes of God and of Man. Melito, Bishop of Sardis (about 176), says: "Since the same (Christ) was at the same time God and perfect Man, He made His two natures evident to us; His Divine nature by the miracles which He wrought during the three years after His baptism; His human nature by those thirtv years that He first lived, during which the lowliness of the Flesh covered over and hid away all signs of the Divinity, though He was at one and the same time true and everlasting God" (Frag. vii in P. G., V, 1221). St. Irenaeus, toward the close of the second century, argues: "If one person suffered and another Person remained incapable of suffering; if one person was born and another Person came down upon him that was born and thereafter left him, not one person but two are proven . . . whereas the Apostle knew one only Who was born and Who suffered" ("Adv. Haer.", III, xvi, n, 9, in P. G., VII, 928). Tertullian bears firm witness: "Was not God really crucified? Did He not realiy die as He really was crucified?" ("De Carne Christi", c. v, in P. L., II, 760).

(Phatcatholic):”Jesus's perfect, 100% humanity and his perfect, 100% divinity combine to form one Person, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity”

10-(Ayed): You are about to attach Jesus to the holonym”Trinity” , are not you?

If Jesus is of a divine form and never sins , then why does he pray?

Facts: It stands to reason and is really accepted that when one is praying , then this pray is a type of adoration .Since Jesus does pray , glorify and seek strength from Allah , then this entails that Jesus is really a prophet , one of Allah’s submissive creatures.

hopefully, i have already adequately addressed why Jesus would pray. maybe others can help to explain this further. As to prayer as a means of adoration, you are right! but, where you are mistaken is when you assume that when A adores B, that A must therefore be inferior to B. This is not always true, as it is w/ the Holy Trinity.

Ayed, this is one of the most complicated mysteries of Christianity. It is in many ways impossible for the human mind to comprehend. All we can do is accept the premises of the Trinity as they are--as they have been outlined and elucidated by the Catholic Church. I won't however, leave you w/ my explanation. For a wealth of information on Christology (Jesus Christ), Pneumatology (Holy Spirit), Theology Proper (Doctrine of God) and the Holy Trinity, i strongly encourage you to visit the following site:

Trinitarianism and Christology

i hope this helps ayed. Good luck and God Bless,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

pham,

sorry about the double post. the first one is an incomplete version of the second. computers get frustrating between 3 and 5 in the morning.

pax christi,

nick

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

i was just wondering if you had any more questions or comments about the role of prayer in the life of the catholic, the persons of the trinity, or the hypstatic union of Jesus Christ.

please let me know.

good luck and God Bless,

nick

[VeraMaria]

ayed;

here are some answers to questions about prayer:

http://www.daughtersofstpaul.com/growingin...ercomm_231.html

Prayer is also communication with God. Prayer is not always asking, asking, asking. Prayer is communication. Jesus was TALKING to the father.

Also, it's important to remember that while Jesus was divine, he was also human. He came to be just like us. He had his moments of despair.

but i don't know why i'm saying this, it was fully explained by people above :)

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope you all be in good condition,

1-(Aloysius)”The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite”

(Ayed): Since they are three distinct persons, then they must have really been three Gods not One .Just stretch the three fingers of your right hand: the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger and see if they are identical?

In your doctrine , Jesus crucified and passed away for three days,then how come he infinite?

2-(Aloysius):”Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is”

(Ayed)Well, then who stayed at heavens?

3-(Aloysius):” …Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father yet they are both the same…He is full God and full man”

(Ayed): It is logic that if Jesus is full God , full man and is distinct from the Father , then this inevitably entails that “the Father” is full God and full man .

4-(Aloysius):”…the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus…”

(Ayed): Exactly so. As mentioned in the Holy Qur’an :”

“ We gave 'Iesa(Jesus), the son of Maryam(Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) “(2:87)5-(Aloysius):”…Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him”

(Ayed):If I ask a child studying at kindergarten school how many person in the phrase No.5 above, he will immediately answer :”Two”

6-(Aloysius):”While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words”

(Ayed):”They” is a pronoun which refers to “two persons” or more”, isn’ it?Then how come you say that “two”equals”one”?Pray , in what language do speak, Mr.Aloysius?Either you unitentionally block up your mind not to accept reality or you keep the facts from me.Pardon me if I say so.

“two” is “two”, “one” is “one” No way!!7-(Aloysius):”They are coequal”

(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, in what characteristics are they coequal?

8-(Aloysius):”God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father”

(Ayed):Now, how many God do you have?Didn’t I said that you have three Gods not One!?

9-(Aloysius):”…God the Father is always praying to God the Son”

(Ayed):Kindly, give me a verse of your holy books confirming that Allah praying to Jesus?.

10-(Alyosius):”God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human

(Ayed) what is the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?

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1-(Phatcatholic):”one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human.

(Ayed) :Well, don’t you say that Jesus is a full man?.

2-(Phatcatholic):” just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do.

(Ayed): Well, Mr.Phatcatholic,read the following verse from your holy book(Mark 1:35):

“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.Now , my question is this:

What type of prayer is Jesus doing in this verse?

3-(Phatcatholic):”nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Ayed):Well, Mr.Phatcatholic, if my logic has collapsed , then read the following verse of your holy book(Luke 24:1

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope you all be in good condition,

1-(Aloysius)”The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite”

(Ayed): Since they are three distinct persons, then they must have really been three Gods not One .Just stretch the three fingers of your right hand: the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger and see if they are identical?

In your doctrine , Jesus crucified and passed away for three days,then how come he infinite?

2-(Aloysius):”Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is”

(Ayed)Well, then who stayed at heavens?

3-(Aloysius):” …Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father yet they are both the same…He is full God and full man”

(Ayed): It is logic that if Jesus is full God , full man and is distinct from the Father , then this inevitably entails that “the Father” is full God and full man .

4-(Aloysius):”…the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus…”

(Ayed): Exactly so. As mentioned in the Holy Qur’an :”

“ We gave 'Iesa(Jesus), the son of Maryam(Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) “(2:87)

5-(Aloysius):”…Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him”

(Ayed):If I ask a child studying at kindergarten school how many person in the phrase No.5 above, he will immediately answer :”Two”

6-(Aloysius):”While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words”

(Ayed):”They” is a pronoun which refers to “two persons” or more”, isn’ it?Then how come you say that “two”equals”one”?Pray , in what language do speak, Mr.Aloysius?Either you unitentionally block up your mind not to accept reality or you keep the facts from me.Pardon me if I say so.

“two” is “two”, “one” is “one” No way!!

7-(Aloysius):”They are coequal”

(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, in what characteristics are they coequal?

8-(Aloysius):”God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father”

(Ayed):Now, how many God do you have?Didn’t I said that you have three Gods not One!?

9-(Aloysius):”…God the Father is always praying to God the Son”

(Ayed):Kindly, give me a verse of your holy books confirming that Allah praying to Jesus?.

10-(Alyosius):”God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human

(Ayed) what is the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?

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1-(Phatcatholic):”one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human.

(Ayed) :Well, don’t you say that Jesus is a full man?.

2-(Phatcatholic):” just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do.

(Ayed): Well, Mr.Phatcatholic,read the following verse from your holy book(Mark 1:35):

“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.Now , my question is this:

What type of prayer is Jesus doing in this verse?

3-(Phatcatholic):”nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Ayed):Well, Mr.Phatcatholic, if my logic has collapsed , then read the following verse of your holy book(Luke 24:19):

“And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:"

My question is :He who has chosen Jesus to be a prophet?Is it me or Jesus’ Creator , yours and mine ?

4-(Phatcatholic):”logistically, the only explanation i can give is in itself quite complicated. it is basically this: even tho the Father is God and the Son is God, they are two different Persons in the Holy Trinity and are therefore able to pray to one another. as to why they would pray to each other, Alo explains this well. I also hold to my conclusion that Jesus, in his perfect humanity, is justified in and able to pray to the Father for strength

(Ayed): Jesus(Allah’s peace be on him) is praying to Allah:

read (Mark 1:35):“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed”

Now, could you please give a holy verse confirming that Allah does pray to Jesus?I hope so.

5-(Phatcatholic):” the former [the Father] …the latter [the Son]”

(Ayed) :Who comes first?the Father or th Son?Who is the inferior and who is the superior?

6-(Phatcatholic:”The Son can be devoted to the Father w/o being "submissive." The Father and the Son are dependent on each other in the sense that if one Person ceases to be, the others cease to be --and-- b/c everything the Son has comes from the Father. However, Jesus is NOT dependent on the Father in the sense that he is inferior to Him. They are both God.

(Ayed):In the Holy Qur’an, Allah says about Himself:”He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything”(6:101)

7-(Phatcatholic):”Although he is perfectly God, he is also perfectly human, and therefore subject to temptation.

(Ayed):How can a God be subject to temptation?

8-(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

(Ayed) :Again, I ask you : Isn’t asking strength from the Father signaling to some weakness, is it?As I said before ,:”Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah”.And If my conclusion is unlogic ,then tell me ,Mr.Phatcatholic, what is the logic conclusion?

9- (Phatcatholic):”… St. John says: "The Word was made flesh"

(Ayed):Who made the Word to be flesh?

10-(Phatcatholic):”…that is, He Who was God in the Beginning and by Whom all things were created became Man?

(Ayed):oh!Why our Originator ,the Creator , Allah , Yahweh , the Father became Man?

11-(Phatcatholic):” According to the testimony of St. Paul, the very same Person, Jesus Christ, "being in the form of God”

(Ayed) :Is St.Paul one of Jesus’ disciples?

12-(Phatcatholic):”As to prayer as a means of adoration, you are right! but, where you are mistaken is when you assume that when A adores B, that A must therefore be inferior to B.

(Ayed):Who should salute first?the officer or the enlisted soldier?

(Ayed):

thank you Veramaria

Accept my rememberances .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[God Conquers]

Ayed,

In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that he is God. He equates himself with God. He claims powers which belong only to God, he was Crucified for claiming he was God.

Did he Know that what he was saying was flase?Was your Prophet Jesus a Liar?

Did he really think he was God but in reality was false?Was your Prophet Jesus a Lunatic?

Or... Did he truly believe that He was God and IS ?

[Aloysius]

Ayed, you seem to think that i have some flawed train of thought that i haven't thought all the way through but you can enlighten me to the part i neglected.

as if i didn't realize saying God the Father, God the Son, and God the HOly SPirit seem like three gods. but the fact is, i understand completely that this doesn't make sense. i contend to you, that if it made sense in human minds, IT WOULDN'T BE GOD.

do you know the concept of infinity in math? do you know that three times infinity is still infinity? that infinity plus infinity plus infinity is infinity? thus it is with the three infinite persons.

infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity

on the left of the equals sign, did i not just mention three infinities? yet that is but one infinity. all three infinities are co-equal, as in infinity=infinity=infinity. And they are all different, say the first infinity counts by ones (equatable to the Holy SPirit, as it binds the other two together) while the other infinity counts by 2's (equatable to the Father) and the other infinity counts by 3's (equatable to the Son). these are three distinct things. as in

infinity#1 would start 2, 4, 6, 8, 10.......... goes on forever

infinty#2 would start 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18....goes on forever

infinity #3 would start 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...... goes on forever.

notice all three are infinity. all three, however are distinct.

now go back up there and replace the word "infinity" with the word "Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity" as we know that by definition God IS infinite.

replace "would start" with "is"

replace the first set of numbers with the word "The Father"

replace the second set of numbers with the word "The Son"

and replace the third set of numbers with the word "The Holy Spirit"

Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity # 1 is The Father, He goes on forever

Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity # 2 is the Son, He goes on forever

Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity # 3 is the Holy Spirit... He goes on forever

The Father + The Son + THe Holy Spirit = God

The Father=The Son=The Holy Spirit=God

The Father= God

The Son= God

The Holy Spirit = God

it's the amazing mystery beyond man's comprehension.

it seems that every time i explain it to you, it goes in one ear and out the other and you pick apart the explanation and say technically, at this point you have mentioned two different gods. that gets a lil frustrating. i know that technically, that's what it says if I say The Father is distinct from the Son, but then i go on the explain how, even though they are distinct they are coequal and the same, and One God.

it's a hard teaching. but hopefully God will open your heart and mind to at least understand the concept even if you don't believe it. Hopefully He'll open your heart and mind to recognize Christians believe in ONE GOD.

also, Jesus IS Allah, according to our Religion. The Holy Spirit IS Allah. Not Just the Father is Allah. well, as long as Allah means God, and according to what i know about Islam, it does.

Peace of Christ be upon you, Ayed. :)

[Aloysius]

1-(Aloysius)”The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite”

(Ayed): Since they are three distinct persons, then they must have really been three Gods not One .Just stretch the three fingers of your right hand: the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger and see if they are identical?

In your doctrine , Jesus crucified and passed away for three days,then how come he infinite?

notice, i said they are three distinct persons. these are three infinite persons who are distinct from one another. see my previous post as to how these Three who are One can be distinct, the part about infinity counted by 1's or 2's or 3's.

2-(Aloysius):”Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is”

(Ayed)Well, then who stayed at heavens?

that's an interesting question. you have led me to think and delve into a theology i never considered before. I would say that The Father, the Son, and the Spirit were infinitely in Heaven, yet God is present all around us on Earth also, for God is infinite and fills up everything. He is the definition of existence, therefore He must dwell wherever something Exists. not to delve into Heresy calling objects God, but saying that God dwells among and sustains all things that exist. The Three Persons of the Trinity are inseperable. Therefore they both infinitely fill up heaven and infinitely more than heaven, and they infinitely fill up the entire Universe and more of the Universe, they would all three be infinitely present in Heaven and on Earth. Yet, the conciencness of the Son, in that special moment of time, resided on Earth in the form of a Man, Jesus Christ. The entire infinite God was this man. All of creation of which He is always present in, was present in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was God Incarnate and because He existed in all places, yet at that moment existed in as man, all places the Son existed in along with the Son were within that man. All of Heaven, which He is always infinitely present in, at that point while He was totally present in the Form of man, all of heaven was totally present in that Man because He who was present in all of Heaven was totally present within the Man. The Man, Jesus Christ, was the Son of God, and within Him dwelt all of the Heavens and All of the Earth, and all of Creation, because the Son of God is always present in all those places.

Catholic scholars and theologians, if any of this contradicts Catholic doctrine, PM me and I will gladly renounce it. But as I know right now, I stand by this claim.

[Aloysius]

3-(Aloysius):” …Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father yet they are both the same…He is full God and full man”

(Ayed): It is logic that if Jesus is full God , full man and is distinct from the Father , then this inevitably entails that “the Father” is full God and full man .

not necessarily. The Son took on flesh. The Father did not. The Son is different from the Father. say i took my previous math example

infinity#1 would start 2, 4, 6, 8, 10.......... goes on forever

infinty#2 would start 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18....goes on forever

infinity #3 would start 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...... goes on forever.

If the Son is equatable to 'infinity #2", then we can say that all of the odd numbers in the list of infinity #2 makes it different from infinty #1. Now you could say then is the Holy SPirit true God and true man if it is the list of infinity #3? i would say that infinity #3 is different, or distinct, from infinity #2 by all of it's numbers which are not multiples of 3. get what i'm emphasizing by this example? just because they are the same and co-equal, doesn't mean that they cannot have differences and distinctions. Like the Humanity taken on by the Son.

4-(Aloysius):”…the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus…”

(Ayed): Exactly so. As mentioned in the Holy Qur’an :”

“ We gave 'Iesa(Jesus), the son of Maryam(Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) “(2:87)

that's not exactly what i was saying. see, we see the Holy Spirit as God. Jesus Christ is True GOd. Jesus Christ is true man also. but because He is also true man, no angel can rightfully be guardian angel of Him. Therefore, the Holy Spirit can be guardian angel of Him because they are both, in numerical value, infinity and thus are equal yet different so the Holy Spirit can protect/rule/guide (the role of a guardian angel) the Son.

what you were saying was that Gabriel was the guardian angel of Jesus, which we wouldn't accept since Gabriel was a mere angel while Jesus IS God.

5-(Aloysius):”…Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him”

(Ayed):If I ask a child studying at kindergarten school how many person in the phrase No.5 above, he will immediately answer :”Two”

this is a good argument, as Jesus did tell us that we must become as little children if we wish to enter the kingdom of God. however, i believe that means more about morality and unquestioning faith of the little child. because Jesus doesn't want us to reject the human reason which He gave as a gift to us in order to learn more about Him and His creation. therefore, a child who does not understand the complexities of the Trinity may answer two. but a child who understands the simplicities of the Trinity and accepts with his childlike faith, as is He knows that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they are all God and they are all one ( i teach preschoolers, and i know most of my preschoolers who seem to get this concept ) then if you say how many is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? they might say three, which is correct as they ARE three persons. or they might say one, which many a preschooler has shocked me by doing so. One is also correct, as we know they are one God.

6-(Aloysius):”While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words”

(Ayed):”They” is a pronoun which refers to “two persons” or more”, isn’ it?Then how come you say that “two”equals”one”?Pray , in what language do speak, Mr.Aloysius?Either you unitentionally block up your mind not to accept reality or you keep the facts from me.Pardon me if I say so.

“two” is “two”, “one” is “one” No way!!

this is the same argument. two does not equal one, as well as three does not equal one. yet infinity plus infinity equals one infinity. infinity times two equals one infinity. infinity plus infinity plus infinity equals one infinity. infinity times three equals one infinity.

7-(Aloysius):”They are coequal”

(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, in what characteristics are they coequal?

let's say we're assigning them a numerical value. that numerical value would have to be infinity as they are both infinite. therefore, i say they are co-equal on the basis that they are both infinity. i say they are distinct because, if we're considering it as numerical values, one could be counting by, say, 2's, and the other could be counting by, say, 3's. so, as far as i'm concerned, the original arguments cover this part.

8-(Aloysius):”God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father”

(Ayed):Now, how many God do you have?Didn’t I said that you have three Gods not One!?

again, i've explained this before. let me replace words to show how that would follow my mathematical metaphor.

"Infinity by 2's infinitely equals Infinity by 3's"

although it's just using a different verb in real life. because these two distinct Infinite persons infinitely love each other. I say God the Son recognizing the divinity of the Son. I say God the Father recognizing the divinity of the Father. the wording may have been confusing for ya there.

9-(Aloysius):”…God the Father is always praying to God the Son”

(Ayed):Kindly, give me a verse of your holy books confirming that Allah praying to Jesus?.

When the Father says to Jesus "You are my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" that's the Father's prayer of encouragment through human words to His Son. They do however, pray, communicate, love and adore each other in Spirit throughout all eternity, but here the Son is doing so through the flesh and the Father responds by doing so 'in the flesh' so to speak, that is, through human means.

10-(Alyosius):”God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human

(Ayed) what is the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?

the same significance as always, infinite, all-powerful, ever-living God. yet when He takes on flesh through the womb of Mary, He becomes man. He does not change, He is still completely God. He takes on humanity humbling Himself and lifting humanity up.

[Aloysius]

1-(Phatcatholic):”one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human.

(Ayed) :Well, don’t you say that Jesus is a full man?.

2-(Phatcatholic):” just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do.

(Ayed): Well, Mr.Phatcatholic,read the following verse from your holy book(Mark 1:35):

“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.Now , my question is this:

What type of prayer is Jesus doing in this verse?

3-(Phatcatholic):”nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Ayed):Well, Mr.Phatcatholic, if my logic has collapsed , then read the following verse of your holy book(Luke 24:19):

“And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:"

My question is :He who has chosen Jesus to be a prophet?Is it me or Jesus’ Creator , yours and mine ?

4-(Phatcatholic):”logistically, the only explanation i can give is in itself quite complicated. it is basically this: even tho the Father is God and the Son is God, they are two different Persons in the Holy Trinity and are therefore able to pray to one another. as to why they would pray to each other, Alo explains this well. I also hold to my conclusion that Jesus, in his perfect humanity, is justified in and able to pray to the Father for strength

(Ayed): Jesus(Allah’s peace be on him) is praying to Allah:

read (Mark 1:35):“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed”

Now, could you please give a holy verse confirming that Allah does pray to Jesus?I hope so.

5-(Phatcatholic):” the former [the Father] …the latter [the Son]”

(Ayed) :Who comes first?the Father or th Son?Who is the inferior and who is the superior?

6-(Phatcatholic:”The Son can be devoted to the Father w/o being "submissive." The Father and the Son are dependent on each other in the sense that if one Person ceases to be, the others cease to be --and-- b/c everything the Son has comes from the Father. However, Jesus is NOT dependent on the Father in the sense that he is inferior to Him. They are both God.

(Ayed):In the Holy Qur’an, Allah says about Himself:”He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything”(6:101)

7-(Phatcatholic):”Although he is perfectly God, he is also perfectly human, and therefore subject to temptation.

(Ayed):How can a God be subject to temptation?

8-(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

(Ayed) :Again, I ask you : Isn’t asking strength from the Father signaling to some weakness, is it?As I said before ,:”Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah”.And If my conclusion is unlogic ,then tell me ,Mr.Phatcatholic, what is the logic conclusion?

9- (Phatcatholic):”… St. John says: "The Word was made flesh"

(Ayed):Who made the Word to be flesh?

10-(Phatcatholic):”…that is, He Who was God in the Beginning and by Whom all things were created became Man?

(Ayed)h!Why our Originator ,the Creator , Allah , Yahweh , the Father became Man?

11-(Phatcatholic):” According to the testimony of St. Paul, the very same Person, Jesus Christ, "being in the form of God”

(Ayed) :Is St.Paul one of Jesus’ disciples?

12-(Phatcatholic):”As to prayer as a means of adoration, you are right! but, where you are mistaken is when you assume that when A adores B, that A must therefore be inferior to B.

(Ayed):Who should salute first?the officer or the enlisted soldier?

1-- Phatcatholic simply made a lil english mistake. i feel safe to speek on his behalf that he meant "only human"

2--It can be a prayer of worship. In His perfect humanity, He worships God. to worship Himself would be somewhat selfish, and perfect humanity does not sin, therefore He worships His Father, He worships the Holy Spirit. This is not a worship where Jesus is inferior saying the Father is better than Him. He equates Himself to the Father many times, but in His humble Humanity, He shows worship to the Father as all faithful human beings should.

3--Jesus was The Prophet fortold in the Old Testament. The Old Testament fortold a prophet who would fulfill all prophesies and Himself be a perfect prophet. Prophet means teacher. The only perfect Teacher is God Himself. As Jesus Himself quoted, 'it is written, they shall all be taught by God.'

4--The Bible doesn't say anywhere, "The Father went and prayed to Jesus", but then again, the Father was not the one incarnate on Earth. THe Father continuously loves His Son, He continually begets His son through the Holy Spirit, at every point infinitely back through time and infinitely forward through time, The Father is beggetting the Son. HE continually loves, adores, and glorifies His Son. The NT has plenty of passages saying the Father glorifies Jesus. You say when Jesus prays he gives glory and worship to the Father. I say when the Father gives glory to Jesus He also gives worship and praise to Him. That is prayer, i would say.

5--The Father and the Son were spoken of in that early Church Father's writing earlier, fitting in where the ... is. It is written former and latter as in the first one written about and the last one written about. it's the english language. anyway, they both have always been. they are YAHWEH, I AM, the definition of existence. neither came first, but they both always existed. the Son is begotten at every point throughout this eternity in which they both exist. As i explained before, they are both infinite, they are both like infinity. THerefore, the are coequal, as in they both equal infinity, although they might be different as the two infinities were different, one counting by 2's and one by 3's.

6--We don't accept the Holy Koran as inspired scripture. all that shoes is that your religion contradicts our religion on the topic of whether or not Jesus Christ is the eternal son of God. what else is new?

7--When He took on humanity, He took on all of humanity, even temptation. He was tempted by the devil, and as nothing is impossible for God He very well could have sinned after being tempted by the devil. yet He was perfect, sinless, and He perfectly resisted temptation because God will not and can not be defeated.

8--asking for strength does not signal weakness. the very nature of the Son is to be begotten of the Father always, He is always coming from the Father. Therefore His very being comes from the Father's very being. Therefore His infinite love, and His infinite existence, all come from the Father, yet They have both always existed. His infinite strength comes from the Father's infinite strength, and through Human words He expressed the dependence on His Father. Not a dependence as in He is weak and the Father is strong, but a dependence as in without the Father He would not exist. This goes both ways. without the Son, the Father would not exist. As the Father is God and God is Love, and before anything was created the Father must have had something to Love or He would not be God.

9--The Father sent the Son, remember they are both different yet equal, one does something the other technically doesn't do, yet they are both still the same. The Father begets the Son always, and at this point in time, The Holy Spirit through whom the Father Begets the son came upon the Blessed Virgin Mary. He, the Holy Spirit, who is the Power of the Most High, overshadowed her and in the moment of Christ's conception The Son was not only begotten through the Holy Spirit, but also through the BLessed Virgin Mary. THe Son is the Word of God, The Father always begets the word, and at that Moment The Father Begot the word into flesh.

10--The Father, The SOn, and the Holy Spirit are all our originater, Yahweh, Allah. And so when the Son became man, the originater, Yahweh, Allah, took on humanity in infinite humility in order to life humanity up.

11-- Yes, Jesus appeared to St. Paul and converted Him, and commisioned Him to be not only a disciple but an Apostle, not one of the 12, but still an Apostle, which means "one who is sent"

12--Just because the enlisted man salutes the officer, does not mean that the enlisted man is in the least bit inferior to the officer. by man's laws, yes it seems the officer is more important than the enlisted man. but by God's law, all men are equal in human dignity. you are trying to impose a social law of man unto God, who is above all things, above human laws. Just because Jesus offers worship and adoration to the Father that does not mean Jesus is inferior. maybe through human laws, it would be a sign of inferiority, but by God's laws, it is not.

alright, sorry i've wrote so much! i hope you can get a chance to read through it all and hopefully at least understand our logic that we do not worship three Gods but one God in three infinite persons. i know this is a lot of info, but i think it would be beneficial to your understanding of Christianity to go through and read it all at least once.

Peace of Christ :)

[phatcatholic]

thanks Alo for filling in some of the blanks..........when it comes to the trinity, u just try to explain it the best u can, knowing full well that no amount of logic gives it justice.

pax christi,

nick

[geetarplayer]

ayed,

I don't know if you read all of the very long posts by Aloysius... (I didn't. Sorry Aloysius!) But here is my shorter explanation. In ways, it falls short of Aloysius' very detailed and convincing proofs. But work with me here. ^_^

A belief that you and I and all Christians, Muslims, and Jews have is that Allah, Yahweh, our Father in Heaven, is all-powerful. He can do anything and everything because He is the Master of the Universe to whom all things submit. There is nothing He can not do, because He is infinite.

That being said, could it be impossible for God to say, "You there! Mountain! Get up and move to the other side of the world"? No, the mountain would move, because all creation submits to God. Could it be impossible for God to say, "I am three. Three are one"? It may be hard for us to understand in our finite human knowledge, but it would not be impossible for God. All things are possible for God. Remember that God made the laws of nature, and He can easily break them. Is it possible for God to say, "I am God and human"? Yes, all things are possible for God.

I very much enjoy exchanging opinions with you. May God bless you many times over, ayed.

-Mark

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope you all be in good health

Thanks and praise be to Allah .Thank you Mr.Phatcatholic and Mr.Aloysius for this discussion .Take into your consideration that I am discussing with you some issues to hunt the facts and reveal some hidden truth .Some people may say “Mr.Ayed is a disputant”.I say No .Believe me I am not so.

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Mr.Aloysius, please do not flood me with much articles .They actually tackle me up.

(Aloysius):”The Son took on flesh. The Father did not. The Son is different from the Father”

1-(Ayed):Where were the Father and the holy spirit when the son became flesh?

(Aloysius):” …Jesus doesn't want us to reject the human reason…”

2-(Ayed):What about (1+1+1=1)?Is it reasonable and logic?

(Aloysius):”…two does not equal one, as well as three does not equal one…”

3-(Ayed):Then, why do you believe in Allah is three ?

(Aloysius) :” let's say we're assigning them a numerical value. that numerical value would have to be infinity as they are both infinite. therefore, i say they are co-equal on the basis that they are both infinity. i say they are distinct because, if we're considering it as numerical values, one could be counting by, say, 2's, and the other could be counting by, say, 3's. so, as far as i'm concerned, the original arguments cover this part.

4-(Ayed):What a Mathematical dogma is !According to your doctrine, Jesus was crucified and died for three days ,then how come he still eternal and co-equal to the Father?

(Aloysius):” When the Father says to Jesus "You are my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" that's the Father's prayer of encouragment through human words to His Son. They do however, pray, communicate, love and adore each other in Spirit throughout all eternity, but here the Son is doing so through the flesh and the Father responds by doing so 'in the flesh' so to speak, that is, through human means.

5-(Ayed):This is not prayer!!You can say to your mother: My mother , you are my beloved darling,with whom I am pleased”Moreover, why does the Father encourage the Son?

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Notice: When I asked Mr.Aloysius what was the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?His answer was this :

--------------------------------------------------

(Mr.Aloysius) :” the same significance as always, infinite, all-powerful, ever-living God. yet when He takes on flesh through the womb of Mary, He becomes man. He does not change, He is still completely God. He takes on humanity humbling Himself and lifting humanity up”

6-(Ayed):Now,I am asking again:

a-Jesus is all-powerful but was arrested?

b-Jesus is all-powerful but culprits spitted on and crowned him with thorns?

c-Th perpetrators pinned Jesus on the cross untill he passed away?

d-Jesus was buried in a cavegrave?

e-Who gave life to Jesus .Who saved him?

Mr.Aloysius, read what Jesus said:”My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB)

Why did Jesus pray ?Did he cry out to himself?After all these is he a God?

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(Mr.Aloysius) :”It can be a prayer of worship. In His perfect humanity, He worships God… to worship Himself would be somewhat selfish…He worships His Father…”

7-(Ayed):It is so.I agree with you on this point.Thank you ,Mr.Aloysius.

(Aloysius):”…This is not a worship where Jesus is inferior saying the Father is better than Him…”

8-(Ayed):Jesus frankly answers your comment :”The Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition)

(Aloysius):”…He equates Himself to the Father many times…”

9-(Ayed):if Jesus is equal to the Father, then why does he equate himself to the fathermany times?Why?

(Aloysius):” …Prophet means teacher. The only perfect Teacher is God Himself. As Jesus Himself quoted, 'it is written, they shall all be taught by God.'

8-(Ayed): To whom the pronoun”they”is refering ?

(Aloysius):”…Not a dependence as in He is weak…”

9-(Ayed)Why was Jesus arrested and crucified?

(Aloysius) :”…without the Son, the Father would not exist. As the Father is God and God is Love, and before anything was created the Father must have had something to Love or He would not be God.

10-(Ayed):prove with only one verse.

(Aloysius):” The Father sent the Son, remember they are both different yet equal, one does something the other technically doesn't do, yet they are both still the same. The Father begets the Son always, and at this point in time, The Holy Spirit through whom the Father Begets the son came upon the Blessed Virgin Mary. He, the Holy Spirit, who is the Power of the Most High, overshadowed her and in the moment of Christ's conception The Son was not only begotten through the Holy Spirit, but also through the BLessed Virgin Mary. THe Son is the Word of God, The Father always begets the word, and at that Moment The Father Begot the word into flesh.

11-(Ayed):But St. John says: "The Word was MADE flesh” not BEGOT ?What is the difference between the two words?

(Aloysius):”The Father, The SOn, and the Holy Spirit are all our originater, Yahweh, Allah. And so when the Son became man, the originater, Yahweh, Allah, took on humanity in infinite humility in order to life humanity up.

12-(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, suppose that you are driving your car on the high way, and all of a sudden you intentionally open the door and jump out of the car . Honsetly and frankly ,tell me,what will happen to you and your car?

(Aloysius):” Just because the enlisted man salutes the officer, does not mean that the enlisted man is in the least bit inferior to the officer. by man's laws, yes it seems the officer is more important than the enlisted man. but by God's law, all men are equal in human dignity. you are trying to impose a social law of man unto God, who is above all things, above human laws. Just because Jesus offers worship and adoration to the Father that does not mean Jesus is inferior. maybe through human laws, it would be a sign of inferiority, but by God's laws, it is not.

13-(Ayed): If so, then why was Jesus(peace be on him) sentenced to death?And crucified?

At length, I wan you to answer the following questions:

A-A cultural question :f I knocked at your homedoor,where would you have me seated?

B-What is the definition of prayer?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you geetaplayer, i will answer your question beacuse i am busy right now.

Accept my regards .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[hyperdulia again]

Prayer is a powerful tool that we use to communicate to God or saints. Even though we often feel our prayers are not answered, we continue to seek prayer. Ultimately, God does hear our prayers.

Sometimes we don’t get exactly what we want when we pray or in some cases, the opposite of what we want.

When this happens it does not mean He doesn’t care. It can be discouraging when something doesn’t go our way, but we should never give up on Him. God knows the full picture, and we don’t.

Several people wonder if God has an ultimate plan, why should we pray. Are we actually going to change God’s mind? The answer is yes we can influence God.

God loves us like sons and daughters. Parents often give their children what they want and keep a balance of what is good for them. Jesus himself prayed to God. God especially notices when more than one person prays for the same thing. God answers prayers each day.

There is a Garth Brooks song called “Unanswered Prayers.” The song thanks God for all the prayers God answered no to. When you think about it how many times, have we prayed for something, and then thanked God later that it didn’t happen or come true. Again, God knows what we need. We need faith.

Praying does not need to be on a need basis scenario. People pray to discuss a problem, thank God, or just talk to God. God is always there for us. The more we pray, the stronger our relationship. I, personally, pray more than times than I can count in a day. I thank God or ask for wisdom. I tell Him when I’m angry, sad, happy, or confused. God is a great friend and wonderful listener.

Prayer does not have to be structured phrases or passages. Yes, certain prayers are made to help us say what we want to say to God. However, we can just as easily have a conversation with God. These conversations become prayers of their own.

When praying, you don’t need to be hung up on when, where, and how. Some people choose to kneel while others like to lie down. This is all a personal choice. Kneeling helps some people concentrate. We also kneel in church to show reverence.

Catholics, in addition to praying to God, often pray to the Holy Spirit, Jesus, Mary, and Saints. Protestants do not usually do this. It has been proven by several miracles that praying to Saints work. A Saint is a person that has died and went to Heaven. I’ve experienced the presence of Saints.

A Saint intercedes for us to God. That means that they God on our behalf to help or do what we are asking. Certain Saints have different specialties depending on what they did or who they were on Earth.

The bottom line is that there is no one reason why people pray. Praying is a very good thing to do for whatever reason.

~ Jessica Steinmetz

http://catholicism.about.com/cs/biblestudy/a/whywepray03.htm

[Aloysius]

ayed, i'm not sending you articals. these are my words. i write them myself, my own keyboard. if something is not written by me, it's either a quote from the Bible and i'll mention the Bible near it, or it's in grey.

anyway, i apologize for writing stuff so long. but believe me, i could continue writing and writing and writing about God and never have explained everything. when i begin to talk about the Holy Trinity, i get rapt in pray and meditation and reflection on the glory and majesty, the infinite mystery.

anyway, i'll try to briefly answer what stood out to me in your last post.edit: alright, it didn't end up being as brief as i had hoped. if you don't have the time, please don't feel obligated to read through the whole thing. i'll bold my main points.

you continually rely on the fact that Jesus was crucified and killed. however, Pontius Pilate had no power over Christ. Christ allowed Himself to be killed in order that He may reconcile us to God. an instance when the ppl had all picked up rocks and were ready to stone Him for calling Himself God, yet He was not killed. Because it was not His time. it would not have been possible for Christ to be killed without Christ allowing it to happen. and He allowed it to happen to perfectly fulfil the plan to reconcile man to God.

how is Jesus still eternal, still infinite, if He died? simple. death is not the end of life unless you die and are damned to hell. Jesus died and descended to preach to the abode of the dead, sheol, where all the faithful Jews that came before Christ were awaiting the Messiah. it is sometimes translated 'hell' but in original context never meant the place of the damned. Christ died and commended His spirit into the Father's hands. He died body and blood, His soul and Divinity through the power of His Godship and the Godship of His Father who is the same yet distinct from Him, were sent to sheol to preach to those souls who had followed God's will and now were in the bosom of Abraham awaiting entrance into heaven by the Messiah, the Christ, who is Jesus.

1+1+1=3. WHere 1 is a finite. where it is 1 infinity plus 1 infinity plus 1 infinity it = 1 infinity. God is infinite. Therefore the latter equation represents God better than the former equation as it uses infinite number. reasoning of finite things cannot represent and infinite God.

prayer can be conversation, expression of love between creation and creator, and expression of love between God Himself. however, i do not need to prove this from the Bible. and in fact, am not very intent on proving this, as i can tell you the Jesus Christ was not only fully God, but also fully man. And He was perfect in His divinity as well as in His humanity. therefore, the perfect humanity of Him loves and worships His Father. yet because He is also Divine, this worship in no way makes Him to be less equal to His Father. now when we worship, we are well aware of our unworthiness and unequalness to God.

ur question # 6, all those examples He allowed to happen.

-A cultural question :f I knocked at your homedoor,where would you have me seated?

B-What is the definition of prayer?

i do not understand the first question, Ayed. i apologize. in our culture, if you knocked at my door i'd answer it and say hello and find out what you wanted. if i knew you i might invite you in. if you were a stranger who was in need i would invite you in and try to help you. but i don't know about seating you somewhere? maybe this is a cultural difference.

and the second question:

i'd say prayer is conversation with God, love expressed in our case between creation and creator, but in Christ's case love expressed between two co-equal persons who are infinitely one yet distinct. Prayer can simply be conversation between me and the Saints, who i also love through my prayers. Prayer can be worship, praise, conversation, love. all sorts of amazing things. B)

[God Conquers]

Ayed,

Records tell us Jesus clearly says that he is God. He equates himself with God. He claims powers which belong only to God, he was Crucified for claiming he was God.

Did he Know that what he was saying was flase?Was your Prophet Jesus a Liar?

Did he really think he was God but in reality was false?Was your Prophet Jesus a Lunatic?

Or... Did he truly believe that He was God and IS ?

[ayed]

Thank you all

thank you Hyperdaulai again.I need thescientific definition of prayer.

Mr.Aloysius,it seems to me that you have not read my questions yet..Anyway, take your time and answer my questions one by one.Otherwise, let another one answer them instead of you if you are busy or unable to do so.

Again, Mr.Aloysius , thank you again and I say could you please answer my question one by one? I hope so.

Thank you Mr.God Conquers.I will answer your question later,

[God Conquers]

Thank you ayed,

We await your return.

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

it seems that Aloysius has answered some of your questions, but not all of them. so, where you have a question that Aloysius has answered, i will paste his answer. for the questions that have not yet been answered, i will attempt to answer them myself. i hope all of this remains organized and helpful for you.

(Aloysius):”The Son took on flesh. The Father did not. The Son is different from the Father”

1-(Ayed):Where were the Father and the holy spirit when the son became flesh?

Answer: God is omnipresent. Where there is a Person, there is God. He is not bound by space or time. Aloysius uses one of his diagrams to give a visual representation of this. You can view it here.

(Aloysius):” …Jesus doesn't want us to reject the human reason…”

2-(Ayed):What about (1+1+1=1)?Is it reasonable and logic?

Answer: see the following from Aloysius

1+1+1=3. WHere 1 is a finite. where it is 1 infinity plus 1 infinity plus 1 infinity it = 1 infinity. God is infinite. Therefore the latter equation represents God better than the former equation as it uses infinite number. reasoning of finite things cannot represent and infinite God.

(Aloysius):”…two does not equal one, as well as three does not equal one…”

3-(Ayed):Then, why do you believe in Allah is three ?

Answer: Ayed, you need to look at each sentence within the context of the entire response. If you pluck one sentence out and analyze it then it will not have the meaning that it is trying to convey, and it will appear more illogical then it in fact is. Three Persons. One God. I implore you to start at the beginning of this thread and read our responses over again.

(Aloysius) :” let's say we're assigning them a numerical value. that numerical value would have to be infinity as they are both infinite. therefore, i say they are co-equal on the basis that they are both infinity. i say they are distinct because, if we're considering it as numerical values, one could be counting by, say, 2's, and the other could be counting by, say, 3's. so, as far as i'm concerned, the original arguments cover this part.

4-(Ayed):What a Mathematical dogma is !According to your doctrine, Jesus was crucified and died for three days ,then how come he still eternal and co-equal to the Father?

Answer: see the following from Aloysius

how is Jesus still eternal, still infinite, if He died? simple. death is not the end of life unless you die and are damned to hell. Jesus died and descended to preach to the abode of the dead, sheol, where all the faithful Jews that came before Christ were awaiting the Messiah. it is sometimes translated 'hell' but in original context never meant the place of the damned. Christ died and commended His spirit into the Father's hands. He died body and blood, His soul and Divinity through the power of His Godship and the Godship of His Father who is the same yet distinct from Him, were sent to sheol to preach to those souls who had followed God's will and now were in the bosom of Abraham awaiting entrance into heaven by the Messiah, the Christ, who is Jesus.

(Aloysius):” When the Father says to Jesus "You are my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" that's the Father's prayer of encouragment through human words to His Son. They do however, pray, communicate, love and adore each other in Spirit throughout all eternity, but here the Son is doing so through the flesh and the Father responds by doing so 'in the flesh' so to speak, that is, through human means.

5-(Ayed):This is not prayer!!You can say to your mother: My mother , you are my beloved darling,with whom I am pleased”Moreover, why does the Father encourage the Son?

Answer: see the following from Aloysiuis

prayer can be conversation, expression of love between creation and creator, and expression of love between God Himself. however, i do not need to prove this from the Bible. and in fact, am not very intent on proving this, as i can tell you the Jesus Christ was not only fully God, but also fully man. And He was perfect in His divinity as well as in His humanity. therefore, the perfect humanity of Him loves and worships His Father. yet because He is also Divine, this worship in no way makes Him to be less equal to His Father. now when we worship, we are well aware of our unworthiness and unequalness to God.

Notice: When I asked Mr.Aloysius what was the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?His answer was this :

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(Mr.Aloysius) :” the same significance as always, infinite, all-powerful, ever-living God. yet when He takes on flesh through the womb of Mary, He becomes man. He does not change, He is still completely God. He takes on humanity humbling Himself and lifting humanity up”

6-(Ayed):Now,I am asking again:

a-Jesus is all-powerful but was arrested?

b-Jesus is all-powerful but culprits spitted on and crowned him with thorns?

c-Th perpetrators pinned Jesus on the cross untill he passed away?

d-Jesus was buried in a cavegrave?

e-Who gave life to Jesus .Who saved him?

Answer: see the following from Aloysius

you continually rely on the fact that Jesus was crucified and killed. however, Pontius Pilate had no power over Christ. Christ allowed Himself to be killed in order that He may reconcile us to God. an instance when the ppl had all picked up rocks and were ready to stone Him for calling Himself God, yet He was not killed. Because it was not His time. it would not have been possible for Christ to be killed without Christ allowing it to happen. and He allowed it to happen to perfectly fulfil the plan to reconcile man to God.

*note: since your #7 was actually an agreement instead of a question, i decided to take your second question under #6 and make it question #7. it is below:

Mr.Aloysius, read what Jesus said:”My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB)

Why did Jesus pray ?Did he cry out to himself?After all these is he a God?

Answer: At first, these words of Jesus in Mark do appear quite confusing. Again, context is very important. In saying these words, Jesus is in fact quoting the words of David in Psalm 22. By looking at the entire psalm we see that Jesus is fulfilling the words of David through his Passion. He is the one who will be crucified, mocked, spit upon, who's clothes will be divided and lots casted for, but who will ultimately bring about glory of God and deliverance for all.

Furthermore, some have argued that Jesus was in fact forsaken on the cross. However, this is not in the sense that the Father ever deserted the Son, but only in the sense that the Father chose not to deliver the Son from the cross. It was the mission of the Son to die as a ransom for many, to bear the burden of all man's sin. As God, the Son could have delivered Himself from the cross, but this was not the will of the Father, and therefore not the will of the Son. He did not cry out to Himself either. One should view this as God the Son crying out to God the Father.

(Aloysius):”…This is not a worship where Jesus is inferior saying the Father is better than Him…”

8-(Ayed):Jesus frankly answers your comment :”The Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition)

Answer: Dave Armstrong aptly surmizes Jesus's "subjection" to the Father in verses like this and others. I cite it below:

Jesus' subjection to the Father is seen in such verses as John 14:28: ". . . for my Father is greater than I," 1 Corinthians 11:3: ". . .the head of Christ {is} God," and 1 Corinthians 15:28: "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." These verses and others have been utilized historically by heretics such as the Arians (of whom Jehovah's Witnesses are a revival), as well as non-trinitarian theists such as Unitarians, to "prove" that Jesus is lesser than the Father and therefore not God in the flesh. Upon closer inspection, however, a clearer picture emerges.

John 14:28 is to be understood in light of passages such as Philippians 2:6-8, which show us that Christ in John 14:28 was speaking strictly in terms of his office as Messiah, which entailed a giving up, not of the Divine Nature, but of certain prerogatives of glory and Deity which are enjoyed by the Father. Christ subjected Himself to the Father in order to undertake His role as the Incarnate Son and Mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5). Similarly, one might say that "the President of the United States is a greater man than I am," but this would not mean he was necessarily a better man. In any event, he is still a man like us. Since Jesus is still God, even while "humbling" Himself (Phil 2:8), Scripture also indicates that the Father is, in a sense, "subject" to the Son:

JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.

JOHN 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give {it} you.

When the Father is called the "head" of the Son (1 Cor 11:3), this also does not entail any lessening of the equality between the Son and the Father. The Bible also talks about wives being subject to their husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5), even while the two are equals (Gal 3:28, Eph 5:21-22), and inDouche, "one flesh" (Mt 19:5-6). Likewise, one Person of the Godhead can be in subjection to another Person and remain God in essence and substance (Phil 2:6-8). Luke 2:51 says that Jesus was "subject" to Mary and Joseph. Yet no orthodox Christian of any stripe would hold that Jesus was lesser in essence than His earthly parents! The same Greek word for "subject" in Luke 2:51 (hupotasso) is used in 1 Cor 15:28, and in 1 Pet 2:18 below. Besides, submissiveness and servanthood is not presented as a sign of weakness in Scripture. Quite the contrary:

1 PETER 2:18 Servants, {be} subject to {your} masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

MATTHEW 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

The word for "greatest" here is meizon, the same word used in John 14:28. Thus, any notion that submissiveness is a lessening of equality is absolutely unscriptural.

Likewise, in 1 Cor 15:28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son as incarnate, not the Son as Son in essence. While this verse tells us that God will be "all in all," Colossians 3:11 tells us that ". . . Christ {is} all, and in all." Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be "all in all" just as His Father is.

(Aloysius):”…He equates Himself to the Father many times…”

9-(Ayed):if Jesus is equal to the Father, then why does he equate himself to the fathermany times?Why?

Answer: Is this what you meant to ask? You seem to have possibly misworded your question. Please clarify this for me.

*note: for here on out, you number your questions wrong. so, this next question, which you have as #8, will now become #10. the remaining questions will fall in proper order as well.

(Aloysius):” …Prophet means teacher. The only perfect Teacher is God Himself. As Jesus Himself quoted, 'it is written, they shall all be taught by God.'

10-(Ayed): To whom the pronoun”they”is refering?

Answer: I would assume that the pronoun "they" refers to all mankind.

(Aloysius):”…Not a dependence as in He is weak…”

11-(Ayed)Why was Jesus arrested and crucified?

Answer: see question #6

(Aloysius) :”…without the Son, the Father would not exist. As the Father is God and God is Love, and before anything was created the Father must have had something to Love or He would not be God.

12-(Ayed):prove with only one verse.

Answer: First off, why must this be proven with only one verse? Secondly, there are too many different points of theology compacted in this expalantion by Aloysius for me to defend it with only one verse. I can however break it up into separate statements and defend each of these with one verse:

"without the Son, the Father would not exist"

-- John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.

"God is Love"

--1 John 4:8 Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.

"before anything was created the Father must have had something to Love or He would not be God."

--John 5:20 For the Father loves his Sonand shows him everything that he himself does, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed.

the three verses i cited above, when put together, entirely defend Aloysius's explanation.

(Aloysius):” The Father sent the Son, remember they are both different yet equal, one does something the other technically doesn't do, yet they are both still the same. The Father begets the Son always, and at this point in time, The Holy Spirit through whom the Father Begets the son came upon the Blessed Virgin Mary. He, the Holy Spirit, who is the Power of the Most High, overshadowed her and in the moment of Christ's conception The Son was not only begotten through the Holy Spirit, but also through the BLessed Virgin Mary. THe Son is the Word of God, The Father always begets the word, and at that Moment The Father Begot the word into flesh.

13-(Ayed):But St. John says: "The Word was MADE flesh” not BEGOT ?What is the difference between the two words?

Answer: Technically, different translations of this verse (John 1:14) word it differently. Most translate this verse as "the word became flesh" and in the second part of the verse even use the word "begotten" to describe the Son's relation to the Father. (to see many translations of this verse, go here). At any rate, there is a slight nuance to the definitions of "made" and "begotten" that change their theological meaning. One could say that the word "made" implies that the maker came before His product. However, this is not the meaning that the doctrine conveys. So, most theologians use the word "begot" which means "cause to exist." This word better conveys the idea that the Son came from the Father, without there being a time in which the Son did not exist.

(Aloysius):”The Father, The SOn, and the Holy Spirit are all our originater, Yahweh, Allah. And so when the Son became man, the originater, Yahweh, Allah, took on humanity in infinite humility in order to life humanity up.

14-(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, suppose that you are driving your car on the high way, and all of a sudden you intentionally open the door and jump out of the car . Honsetly and frankly ,tell me,what will happen to you and your car?

Answer: I'm not sure what you are attempting to prove with this question, but i think I can guess. Since my car and I do not share the same nature, when I jump out I will separate myself from my car. My car will crash and I will skid along the pavement. However, when God became man through the Second Person in the Blessed Trinity, he did not separate or divide Himself. The Father and the Son, though differnet in Person, have the same nature.

(Aloysius):” Just because the enlisted man salutes the officer, does not mean that the enlisted man is in the least bit inferior to the officer. by man's laws, yes it seems the officer is more important than the enlisted man. but by God's law, all men are equal in human dignity. you are trying to impose a social law of man unto God, who is above all things, above human laws. Just because Jesus offers worship and adoration to the Father that does not mean Jesus is inferior. maybe through human laws, it would be a sign of inferiority, but by God's laws, it is not.

15-(Ayed): If so, then why was Jesus(peace be on him) sentenced to death?And crucified?

Answer: see question #6

16-A-A cultural question :f I knocked at your homedoor,where would you have me seated?

B-What is the definition of prayer?

Answer: see the following from Aloysius

i do not understand the first question, Ayed. i apologize. in our culture, if you knocked at my door i'd answer it and say hello and find out what you wanted. if i knew you i might invite you in. if you were a stranger who was in need i would invite you in and try to help you. but i don't know about seating you somewhere? maybe this is a cultural difference.

and the second question:

i'd say prayer is conversation with God, love expressed in our case between creation and creator, but in Christ's case love expressed between two co-equal persons who are infinitely one yet distinct. Prayer can simply be conversation between me and the Saints, who i also love through my prayers. Prayer can be worship, praise, conversation, love. all sorts of amazing things.

Ayed, it seems to me as though you are trying to apply to much human logic or reasoning to understand (or refute) the Trinity. But, the Trinity is a Mystery, making it beyond our human capacity to understand. All we can do is accept the doctrines that we know to be true about the Trinity, wether they make sense or not. Also, I would implore you to read the following article:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

It is the single best explanation of the Trinity that you will find. Please ayed, if you are intent on learning about this, go to the articles that we refer you to. Especially regarding your questions about prayer, it seems (although I could be wrong) that you did not consult the articles I referred you to in the very beginning of this thread. Those alone would have answered many of your questions about prayer.

God Bless you in your search for Truth

phatcatholic