Purgatory

[qfnol31]

I want to know what troubles you about Purgatory. Be honest, if you wouldn't mind, and frank.

And if Catholics wish to post in here, please stay away from Holy Writ (Scripture) and the Catechism, as well as any apologetics authors. I ask this because I don't want this to become apologetics, which I feel will eventually be the downfall of "ecumenism" anyways, and I want to have an honest discussion. Thanks!

[homeschoolmom]

While it's all logical and makes sense, it freaks me out because it is contrary to the way I was taught for my whole lifetime.

Also, the idea of indulgences cutting off the length of stay seems weird...

Okay, that's my late-night confession...

[qfnol31]

It's a hard idea to come to grasp...I'm reading an excellent book on it though!

I have found some ideas in there I would like to share.

[homeschoolmom]

It's your thread...

[qfnol31]

I'm curious what it is that most people have trouble with though.

[homeschoolmom]

<sigh> my lone opinion is not enough to continue the conversation...

Patience, HSM... Others will comment and then you can know...

[qfnol31]

If you elaborate more, we can begin there.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 15 2005, 12:36 AM']If you elaborate more, we can begin there. 
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I could... I have a feeling, however, that if I did at this late hour it would be completely incoherant and I would come off looking like Mrs. Coo-coo Bananas.... Maybe after a few hours of sleep...

[qfnol31]

That's fine.

I've been accused of the same...

[goldenchild17]

I understand it okay and believe it completely but I am not the best at defending it Scripturally or from the early Fathers. Any insight on that would be helpful.

[track2004]

It always struck me as odd because it doesn't seem like you could do something only minorly bad to get you there. All sorts of things can get you sent to hell (or so they tell me), but purgatory is just for the marginally bad... or something. It sounds like God was trying to stop a loophole... like since He didn't come out and say such and such is hell worthy He'll just make you do the purgatory thing for a while. It's just kinda wierd, though I do kinda like the idea at the same time...

[infinitelord1]

I dont thknk the bible really talks about it enough for it to exist. My friend gave me some catholic website that provided scripture supporting purgatory (according to the catholic church). Most of these verses didnt convicne me at all. I like to tthink purgatory exists however. I dont believe it would be for people who were troubled though. I think it would be for people who had never heard the truth about god and jesus christ that were good people.

[goldenchild17]

Yeah well if we commit a sin but do not completely separate ourselves from God then He is not going to condemn us. But we also know from Scripture that nothing impure can enter heaven. So if we die with some sin, or effects of sin on our soul we need to be purified before entering God's presence.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='track2004' date='Aug 15 2005, 02:25 AM']It always struck me as odd because it doesn't seem like you could do something only minorly bad to get you there.  All sorts of things can get you sent to hell (or so they tell me), but purgatory is just for the marginally bad... or something.  It sounds like God was trying to stop a loophole... like since He didn't come out and say such and such is hell worthy He'll just make you do the purgatory thing for a while.  It's just kinda wierd, though I do kinda like the idea at the same time...
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St. Catherine of Genoa says that the soul actually chooses Purgatory, for it is too ashamed to stand before God with impurities. She says that it would be a punishment 10 times worse for the soul to see itself before God with the impurities from sin than it would suffer in Purgatory itself.

Also, Fr. Faber (the author of the book I'm reading) talks about how if you wish to purify gold, you heat it amongst itself so that all that is left is the gold (24 karat), though that may come from St. Catherine as well. For the soul to be purified, it cannot be in front of God, but must be purified amongst itself...if that makes sense.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 15 2005, 02:31 AM']I dont thknk the bible really talks about it enough for it to exist. My friend gave me some catholic website that provided scripture supporting purgatory (according to the catholic church). Most of these verses didnt convicne me at all.  I like to tthink purgatory exists however. I dont believe it would be for people who were troubled though. I think it would be for people who had never heard the truth about god and jesus christ that were good people.
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I have a couple questions, if you don't mind.

1) Are you Catholic? I'm just curious.

2) Would you be interested in reading some that has very little to do with Holy Writ itself?

[Didacus]

You want to know why makes us nervous about purgatory?

Life is hard enough and you're lucky if it lasts for 100 years. Purgatory is much much harder than life (or so I believe), and I hear it can last for centuries, maybe thousands of years? SFD!!! Why should I be nervous about that eh?

On the other hand, God's justice is perfect and in that I trust. And if purgatory was not there, then it would be hell my main concern I ain't no holy man, nor will I ever be, so hell is on my list of concerns, but I think I'm more of a purgatory guy.

I like the notino that a soul chooses to go to purgatory rather than being 'sentenced' there as to voluntarily purify itself for God. That makes sense to me.

[Quietfire]

[quote]St. Catherine of Genoa says that the soul actually chooses Purgatory, for it is too ashamed to stand before God with impurities. She says that it would be a punishment 10 times worse for the soul to see itself before God with the impurities from sin than it would suffer in Purgatory itself.

Also, Fr. Faber (the author of the book I'm reading) talks about how if you wish to purify gold, you heat it amongst itself so that all that is left is the gold (24 karat), though that may come from St. Catherine as well. For the soul to be purified, it cannot be in front of God, but must be purified amongst itself...if that makes sense.[/quote]

This I understand completely.
[quote]On the other hand, God's justice is perfect and in that I trust. And if purgatory was not there, then it would be hell my main concern I ain't no holy man, nor will I ever be, so hell is on my list of concerns, but I think I'm more of a purgatory guy.

I like the notino that a soul chooses to go to purgatory rather than being 'sentenced' there as to voluntarily purify itself for God. That makes sense to me.[/quote]

And this I totally understand.

I guess the best I can hope for is purgatory, although I aspire for sainthood.


Pax

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Aug 14 2005, 11:30 PM']While it's all logical and makes sense, it freaks me out because it is contrary to the way I was taught for my whole lifetime.

Also, the idea of indulgences cutting off the length of stay seems weird...
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What she said... it's a hard concept for me to grasp mostly because it's different from what I've learned these past 19 years...

And the way I've heard it argued from a Protestant point of view is that Jesus died to take away ALL of our sins...so then what is purgatory for? Which sins did he not die for?

That, and when Jesus was on the cross and the man beside him believed...and he said "Surely you will be with me today in paradise." This was obviously not a very good man yet he was told that he would be in heaven that day...not after a while in purgatory.

I dunno...that's just what I've heard my whole life. It is getting easier to understand though and I'd like to do some more reading and studying about it.

God bless

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Ever since Father's Phat 5... when I hear/read "purgatory" I think "the sacred heart of Jesus is a burning furnace of charity" and remember 1 Corinthians 3:15.

When we die, before we can enter Heaven we must be purified of our inclination to sin and any remaining 'stains' of sin (so we can be squeaky clean for Heaven--Revelation 21:27). As we grow closer and closer to Christ (and His Sacred heart that is a "burning furnace of charity"/love ) the things we've done that are not so good are like paper and straw and burn up and go away, while the things we did that demonstrated the love of Christ are like silver and gold and only become refined and pretty in the firery love of Christ.


Also, in regards to the often Protestant promoted notion that purgatory somehow denies Christ's dying for our sins, or at least some of them-- that's not the case at all of purgatory. Purgatory is not about forgiveness. That is received from God alone through the merits of the Sacrifice of Christ crucified. Even after sin is forgiven, its effects often remain, and so does "punishment" (in a loose sense). Think of a parent disciplining a child--it's not abuse, nor does it mean the child is not forgiven, they just have to learn. Scripturally, look at David in 2 Samuel 12:13-14--though David was forgiven, he was still punished. Purgatory is the final process by which we are made holy and pure-- completely. Nothing of our former sinfulness will taint our souls. All the bad stuff is burned away in the firery love of Jesus' Sacred Heart.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

oops, didn't read the OP fully...

ignore me.