Purgatory

[Didacus]

You want to know why makes us nervous about purgatory?

Life is hard enough and you're lucky if it lasts for 100 years. Purgatory is much much harder than life (or so I believe), and I hear it can last for centuries, maybe thousands of years? SFD!!! Why should I be nervous about that eh?

On the other hand, God's justice is perfect and in that I trust. And if purgatory was not there, then it would be hell my main concern I ain't no holy man, nor will I ever be, so hell is on my list of concerns, but I think I'm more of a purgatory guy.

I like the notino that a soul chooses to go to purgatory rather than being 'sentenced' there as to voluntarily purify itself for God. That makes sense to me.

[Quietfire]

[quote]St. Catherine of Genoa says that the soul actually chooses Purgatory, for it is too ashamed to stand before God with impurities. She says that it would be a punishment 10 times worse for the soul to see itself before God with the impurities from sin than it would suffer in Purgatory itself.

Also, Fr. Faber (the author of the book I'm reading) talks about how if you wish to purify gold, you heat it amongst itself so that all that is left is the gold (24 karat), though that may come from St. Catherine as well. For the soul to be purified, it cannot be in front of God, but must be purified amongst itself...if that makes sense.[/quote]

This I understand completely.
[quote]On the other hand, God's justice is perfect and in that I trust. And if purgatory was not there, then it would be hell my main concern I ain't no holy man, nor will I ever be, so hell is on my list of concerns, but I think I'm more of a purgatory guy.

I like the notino that a soul chooses to go to purgatory rather than being 'sentenced' there as to voluntarily purify itself for God. That makes sense to me.[/quote]

And this I totally understand.

I guess the best I can hope for is purgatory, although I aspire for sainthood.


Pax

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Aug 14 2005, 11:30 PM']While it's all logical and makes sense, it freaks me out because it is contrary to the way I was taught for my whole lifetime.

Also, the idea of indulgences cutting off the length of stay seems weird...
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What she said... it's a hard concept for me to grasp mostly because it's different from what I've learned these past 19 years...

And the way I've heard it argued from a Protestant point of view is that Jesus died to take away ALL of our sins...so then what is purgatory for? Which sins did he not die for?

That, and when Jesus was on the cross and the man beside him believed...and he said "Surely you will be with me today in paradise." This was obviously not a very good man yet he was told that he would be in heaven that day...not after a while in purgatory.

I dunno...that's just what I've heard my whole life. It is getting easier to understand though and I'd like to do some more reading and studying about it.

God bless

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Ever since Father's Phat 5... when I hear/read "purgatory" I think "the sacred heart of Jesus is a burning furnace of charity" and remember 1 Corinthians 3:15.

When we die, before we can enter Heaven we must be purified of our inclination to sin and any remaining 'stains' of sin (so we can be squeaky clean for Heaven--Revelation 21:27). As we grow closer and closer to Christ (and His Sacred heart that is a "burning furnace of charity"/love ) the things we've done that are not so good are like paper and straw and burn up and go away, while the things we did that demonstrated the love of Christ are like silver and gold and only become refined and pretty in the firery love of Christ.


Also, in regards to the often Protestant promoted notion that purgatory somehow denies Christ's dying for our sins, or at least some of them-- that's not the case at all of purgatory. Purgatory is not about forgiveness. That is received from God alone through the merits of the Sacrifice of Christ crucified. Even after sin is forgiven, its effects often remain, and so does "punishment" (in a loose sense). Think of a parent disciplining a child--it's not abuse, nor does it mean the child is not forgiven, they just have to learn. Scripturally, look at David in 2 Samuel 12:13-14--though David was forgiven, he was still punished. Purgatory is the final process by which we are made holy and pure-- completely. Nothing of our former sinfulness will taint our souls. All the bad stuff is burned away in the firery love of Jesus' Sacred Heart.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

oops, didn't read the OP fully...

ignore me.

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 15 2005, 10:06 AM']Also, in regards to the often Protestant promoted notion that purgatory somehow denies Christ's dying for our sins, or at least some of them-- that's not the case at all of purgatory. Purgatory is not about forgiveness. That is received from God alone through the merits of the Sacrifice of Christ crucified. Even after sin is forgiven, its effects often remain, and so does "punishment" (in a loose sense). Think of a parent disciplining a child--it's not abuse, nor does it mean the child is not forgiven, they just have to learn. Scripturally, look at David in 2 Samuel 12:13-14--though David was forgiven, he was still punished. Purgatory is the final process by which we are made holy and pure-- completely. Nothing of our former sinfulness will taint our souls. All the bad stuff is burned away in the firery love of Jesus' Sacred Heart.
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I like how you put it... thanks.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 15 2005, 10:06 AM'][snip]
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i really like your take on purgatory Fides, especially your example of the child being disciplined by his parents.

Though portrayed as fearful in many ways, I do not believe it will be a 'horrible' place. It is not intended to be a 'miniature hell' as some see it.

I had never thought of purgatory as being voluntary until I read this thread. I have so much to learn... so little time (well, little time on earth, I think I'll be in purgatory a long long long long long long time ).

[qfnol31]

Another idea of Purgatory, which doesn't contradict anything said before, is that it is the fulfillment of the payment due do for sins. But this I must explain.

Every action has a consequence, and sin has a bad one. If we were to go to Heaven without sufficient payment (I cannot think of a better word right now...), then we would be too overcome with grief. Purgatory gives us a chance to fulfill that, and in doing so, to overcome any idea of a debt we owe.

It's not that Jesus didn't do enough with the Cross, but rather it is another example of His mercy that He would want every opportunity for us to suffer to be eliminated.

If you were to run into your friend's car by accident, he can forgive you all your debt. But I have a feeling you will feel sorry for a while to come. Purgatory allows us the opportunity to fill that sorrow knowing that we have done something to repay our sins.

[Mikhail]

Purgatory was invented by the church to deal with a huge hole in the question of eternity. Frankly, there is no such thing as purgatory, nor is there anything in the bible or early church writing that even remotely suggests such a place exists. In the old testament, there was a place where a similar place was. This was called "Abrahams bosom" in the old testament. Jesus did away with it during the three days of his death.

My very dear Catholic friend and I have filled the hole with something that makes much more sense. However, since it would probably cause the close-minded westerners on this site to freak out, I'll just not bother mentioning it.

[Didacus]

That too bad mike... I kinda like freaking out every now and again...

give it a shot...(yes I am fishing for it)...

I might be a poor disabled westerner because of my closed-mind, but that doesn't mean I ain't curious...

Edited August 15, 2005 by Didacus

[Mikhail]

Hmmmmm...well I'll think about it. Maybe PM me.

[Jake Huether]

I believe in Purgatory... and I think I have a grasp of it... although it is only in dialogue that we truly reach the depths of it's reality - and even then, as humans, we can never fully understand God's Fatherly Love in our Purification.

I will say what I know, or at least as much as I think I do, and hopefully we can keep this thread kindled. It may be scattered a bit, because there's just so much.. I don't even know where to begin. But I'll just start and we can fill it in as we go...


While we are on earth we have the capacity to sin, unfortunately, in our thoughts and in our actions. Sins hurt. They hurt us, and they hurt God. They hurt us because we are acting against the way we were created to act. They hurt God, because He created us and wants us to be happy. We can only be happy if we are doing what we were created to do! If a car turns left when it is supposed to turn right, damage happens. The car is hurt, and the engineer is hurt.

Now, when damage happens due to sin, we need to do a few things. First of all, we need to stop what we are doing. Immediately this may happen due to fear, it may be due to a self realization.. etc. This requires will power. It requires an act of the will. Secondly, we need to get on our knees and ask for God's forgiveness. Another act of our will. We make restitution for hurting ourselves and God. This requires an act of the will. It requires work. And it requires the Love of God in us, to wish to restore what God had made, and what we had damaged. This is where sacrifice comes in. This is why in the OT they performed sacrifices, and why in the NT, Christ became the Lamb of God. He has restored what God had created, and what we had marred. Thirdly, we must continue to avoid sin. This requires an act of the will and up until Christ, this is all that was available community-wise. The help of God was there for those who sought it. But corporal Grace made available through the Sacraments was not. Finally, and by Scripture, we know that one more thing MUST happen!

[quote]Proverbs 3:12
because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.[/quote]

We must be disciplined! This isn't God's wrath punishing us; it is God's Justice purifying us. This requires not only an act of our own will, but a submission to the will of God. We must submit to the will of God and accept the discipline He prescribes.

Now each sin requires a certain amount of discipline to overcome. The discipline serves several purposes. Not limited to, making sure we don't repeat that sin.

So, we have our earthly life to work these things out. This is why we fast and abstain and perform penances. However, if we come to the end of our earthly life and find that we have not paid in full our share of discipline - say, by not having confessed all our venial sins, or otherwise not having fully removed the "stain" of sin from our souls, God's Fatherly Love kicks in via Purgatory. Purgatory is a continuation of this discipline. And since we have not the capacity, out of body, to discipline ourselves, it is only by the Grace of God in Christ Jesus that He provides us this. If it were not for Purgatory, we could not make it into heaven. Our only other option would be to go where those souls go that have fully and utterly rejected God and His mercy. But God's Mercy IS available. And for those who seak it, they will find it - if not on earth, in Purgatory.

Scripturally, if we look at the OT, we note that aside from repentance, there is discipline. And of course we know that in the OT, if there wasn't the hope of the Savior, Jesus Christ, who would come later, there would be no need for discipline. Why would God discipline a son who is already on their way to hell? But because of the Savior, we require discipline.

And despite popular Protestant theology that removes the need for discipline by the Cross of Christ, the need for discipline remains.

You see, Christ opened the Gates of heaven for us by restoring our relationship with God. He became Man so that we might share in His Divinity! He made it possible for us to get into heaven. By His Cross our sins are forgiven, because by His Cross the damage we did to creation is restored. His Cross replaced the sacrifices of the OT. But forgiveness is a far cry from discipline! For even a Loving Father, as Scripture is so clear about, disciplines His son. Forgiveness is one thing. Learning and growing is another. Forgiveness only makes is possible to learn and grow. But discipline puts this in action!

No Catholic will deny that Forgiveness is what gets us saved. Salvation defined as - on the way to Heaven. For sure. But what gets us into Heaven is the fullness of Grace in our souls. We don't have to be pure to be saved. We MUST be pure to enter Heaven.


It is a huge disadvantage not to understand the meaning of Christ and His Cross, when trying to understand God's Life Giving Grace.

And it isn't only Christ's Cross that needs understanding, it is His incarnation. The meaning of God becoming Man!

By incorporating us into Christ's Body, through His Life and Death - in the Water's of Baptism, we die with Christ so that we might be raised with Him! We become His Body. And becoming His Body, we now are one IN HIM. One with Him, but also with eachother! We are truly a Body. And as a Body, Purgatory MUST be a reality.

Understand this, until the last person on earth has passed away, the Body of Christ extends beyond Heaven. And as such, Christ's Grace is made available to us all. Christ being the source of Grace uses His Body to extend us this Grace. So that from Heaven through Purgatory and onto earth Christ's Grace is there for us. We cannot give eachother Grace. Christ's gives the Grace. But we can extend our efforts to merit Grace for others. This is how Purgatory becomes a reality, and how indulgences fit's in.

As a Body, what you do effects me. What I do effects you. No Protestant would deny that my prayers help them. Why? Through Christ, our prayers help eachother. And like prayers, our works and our faith have a profound effect on the Body of Christ. It is a reality that can be seen in every day life. Take AA for instance. Why is it that community seems to foster an easier rehab for Alcoholics? For the same reason the Body of Christ fosters and easier rehab for sinners! LOL. If I am weak, you can give me strength. Of course, not by your own strength, but by the Strength of Christ within you! Because by the waters of Baptism we are One in Christ! In Christ's death, Grace became available to us in abundance. There is enough Saving Grace to bring every human from Adam and Eve to you and me and beyond into heaven. But we know that not every one will accept this Grace. But Grace isn't wasted!

That being said, one may completely reject God's Grace, but likewise one may accept it and merit even more than their share! Take St. Francis of Assisi for instance. Through his life of poverty he most assuredly merited much more Grace than was required to make up for his sins. He continued to purge himself and to discipline himself beyond requirement. But this merited Grace was not lost. For it was the Grace that Christ had merited on the Cross. How can it be lost? It was stored up for the Body. Because what he does effects you and me. Look at all the Holy Martyrs. Their most excruciating deaths merited far more grace than required to discipline them for their sins. And for this reason, they are Saints. But this store of Grace isn't locked away. The key-holder of the Kingdome, the Holy Father, the Pope, has the Authority to bind and loose. And he has made it clear under certain circumstances we may be granted a portion of this store in order to completely or partially remove the need for discipline. It doesn't just reduce purgatory time. It reduces discipline time. Because we wouldn't have necessarily needed the extension period called Purgatory in order to be fully purged. We may have only needed a few days of fasting or penance on earth! But discipline isn't taken from me without a price, you see? As a Body discipline becomes distributable, just as Grace is; all through Christ! St. Francis and all the Saints have taken on a greater share of the discipline that the Body, as a whole, requires. In this way, the Grace that Christ earned for them on the Cross is given to us instead. The price of the Grace, Christ's Cross, and the need for discipline always remain constant.

It is because Christ made us His Body that the reality of Purgatory is manifest. For it is through the Body of Christ that those who are weak are made strong. And until all members of His Body are in Heaven, those who have will continue to help those who have not. And as long as there is death, there will be those who die in forgiveness yet not in perfection.

Indulgences would mean nothing without Purgatory, and vise versa. And the Body of Christ would mean nothing without either. For, it is through Christ that we are His Body, and in His Body not even death can separate us. And if this is true, and I die in Christ, how can I forget my brothers and sisters on earth! And if I haven't forgot them on earth, how will I forget them when they die! We don't forget our parents when they die. Why would they forget us after they die. And if we die in Christ, and in Christ is YOU, than how is it that I am not with you too!?

It is Truly wonderful to know that St. Theresa died in Christ, not just physically, but in the Waters of Baptism. And when I died in the Waters of Baptism, I died in Christ too! And since we both have already died in Christ, we are both IN Christ! How can she, being IN Christ, not know who I am, who am also IN Christ!

And if I struggle on earth, will she not ask Christ on my behalf to help me! And will Christ who is One with the Father not ask His Father to give me Grace!? This Grace will not be new! It is the Grace that Christ earned on the Cross! It is the same Grace that St. Theresa had stored up by offering God her little flowers! And if St. Theresa and I are in Christ, how can it NOT be that I could be given even a part of this Grace that St. Theresa had merited?

In light of the understanding of Christ's death and what it has done for us, the bigger question isn't whether Purgatory exists, or Indulgences are real, but how could they not be!? If Purgatory is false and Indulgences are not real, then the Body of Christ is nothing, and the Cross of Christ becomes a repulsive animal sacrifice made in the OT!

By the Cross of Christ I am forgiven, and by His Body I am cleansed!

Praise be to God.

There is just so much more to contemplate. And I'm as sure as I am human that there are some inadequacies in this post. If I've helped at all, it is by the very Body of Christ that I speak of. But if I have erred, it is by my own lack of understanding. Please, if I've erred, let me know. I want so bad to learn more and more of my Loving God and Father.

Amen!

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 15 2005, 02:48 AM']I have a couple questions, if you don't mind.

1)  Are you Catholic?  I'm just curious. 

2)  Would you be interested in reading some that has very little to do with Holy Writ itself?
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1) I guess

2) ?

[Mikhail]

[quote]"So, we have our earthly life to work these things out. This is why we fast and abstain and perform penances. However, if we come to the end of our earthly life and find that we have not paid in full our share of discipline - say, by not having confessed all our venial sins, or otherwise not having fully removed the "stain" of sin from our souls, God's Fatherly Love kicks in via Purgatory. Purgatory is a continuation of this discipline. And since we have not the capacity, out of body, to discipline ourselves, it is only by the Grace of God in Christ Jesus that He provides us this. If it were not for Purgatory, we could not make it into heaven. Our only other option would be to go where those souls go that have fully and utterly rejected God and His mercy. But God's Mercy IS available. And for those who seak it, they will find it - if not on earth, in Purgatory."[/quote]

Like I said, there is a hole in just dying and going to heaven. So the Church invented purgatory to take care of it. It's too convenient and fits too perfectly without any backup from Christ. The same goes for indulgences. A clever invention to fill in gaps that the Church couldn't understand.

[qfnol31]

I think it's the perfect example of mercy beyond the Crucifixion.