Choosing an objective apologetics website

[LittleLes]

"that guideline applies solely to those who claim to be Catholic. if you wish to be "Catholic" then you must believe certain things and be obedient to the Magisterium. if you believe those things to be in error, then simply cease to be Catholic and you can talk about as much as you want."


Perhaps an unbiased and objective website is the answer for those of us whose belief systems allow us to admit that the Church is occasionally in error.

There is something inherently wrong when a claimed Catholic entity refuses to let its members be guided by the solid evidence no matter how overwhelming.

But then I wasn't too fond of the Index of Forbidden Books either.

For those who want to be told what they can believe, the is always Phatmass. But for those of us who don't buy into this philosophy, fortunately there are others apologetic websites.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I love the Index of Forbidden Books. I wish they would keep it updated.. *sigh*

Of course there is so much trash out there it would be hard to maintain. They would be adding 30 new titles a day...

[hierochloe]

Les, wasn't the last post about this sufficient? Spamming is bad, mmmk?

[Paladin D]

I love being brainwashed, it keeps my brain clean.

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 19 2005, 05:56 PM']For those who want to be told what they can believe, the is always Phatmass. But for those of us who don't buy into this philosophy, fortunately there are others apologetic websites.
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Then why don't you go on those websites, rather than wasting your time on phatmass?

There's a simple solution to everything!

[Carnanc]

There can't be error in the truth.

[Aloysius]

The Catholic Church leaves its members with the choice to either be Catholic or don't be Catholic. If you believe the Church not to be in error, then be Catholic. If you come to the conclusion that the Church is in error, don't be Catholic. It's intellectual honesty, that if you believe the Church to be in error then you should not be in the Church. you don't even believe in Christ for goodness sake, how do you call yourself Catholic? it's dishonest. the problem is not your opinion that the Church is in error, it is the coupling of that opinion with a claim to be a representative of that Church that is troubling.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 19 2005, 10:26 PM']The Catholic Church leaves its members with the choice to either be Catholic or don't be Catholic.  If you believe the Church not to be in error, then be Catholic.  If you come to the conclusion that the Church is in error, don't be Catholic. 
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I CAN CLEARLY SEE HOW CONFUSING THIS IS!!!

*brain explodes from confusion*

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Aug 19 2005, 07:32 PM']Then why don't you go on those websites, rather than wasting your time on phatmass?   

There's a simple solution to everything!
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RESPONSE:

You are absolutely correct. I've enrolled in the Catholic Debate on Beliefnet.

Beliefnet seems to be an open and intellectually honest website which doesn't restrict posters to what the moderators believe is the (only) party line.

"You shall know the truth; and the truth shall make you free."

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

I came across this writing which I thought was appropriate for much which appears on Phatmass:

St Ignatius Loyola said in his book "We should always be ready to
accept this Principal: I will believe that the white that I see is
BLACK, if the Romen Catholic church defines it as such"

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 06:01 AM']I came across this writing which I thought was appropriate for much which appears on Phatmass:

St Ignatius Loyola said in his book "We should always be ready to
accept this Principal: I will believe that the white that I see is
BLACK, if the Romen Catholic church defines it as such"
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[/quote]
I posted that! Well, that's not exactly verbatim, but it's from my posts on that other thread. Share the love.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Just so it's accurate, the Ignatius quote was this:

"We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides."

And the statement I made that prompted me to find that quote was this:

"If I see a car and it looks candy apple red, but the Church declares that its blue, it's blue! I must be color blind. And I'll take that to the stake and pyre."

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote]an unbiased and objective website [/quote]
Les: I've been to a lot of websites and this concept you propose strikes me as of the same category as Shangri-la or El Dorado.

I think what you are fantasizing about is just a website where the peeps tend to share your own biases and subjective leanings. I've definitely seen those, but calling them unbiased or objective seems to me to be a rather biased and subjective opinion.

Forgive my candor, but cynicism and skepticism do not equal objectivity or truth. In my experience the path to truth is largely dialogical and dialectical, requiring a supple and fluid disposition; on this I assume we would agree, but there is the foundation or source of this dynamic, which determines the structure of what follows, and here I believe we would differ.

[LittleLes]

Forgive my candor, but cynicism and skepticism do not equal objectivity or truth. [right][snapback]691537[/snapback][/right]
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RESPONSE:

But objectively evaluating the evidence rather than being told one cannot post (or may have one's post "locked") if one suggests that white might really be white rather than the "party line's" black, goes a long way to establishing "truth." :

[LittleLes]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 06:01 AM']I came across this writing which I thought was appropriate for much which appears on Phatmass:

St Ignatius Loyola said in his book "We should always be ready to
accept this Principal: I will believe that the white that I see is
BLACK, if the Romen Catholic church defines it as such"
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[/quote]


ADDED:

But, of course, Aloyious and CAM will probably tell us that if we've read all the Church's writings as they have, we'd realize that "white" is really "black" if viewed "in context.

Are they kin to Karl Keating by any chance??? :

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 07:11 AM']
Forgive my candor, but cynicism and skepticism do not equal objectivity or truth. [right][snapback]691537[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

RESPONSE:

But objectively evaluating the evidence rather than being told one cannot post (or may have one's post "locked") if one suggests that white might really be white rather than the "party line's" black, goes a long way to establishing "truth." :
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While I do think it would be interesting to whittle away at your viewpoint ad nauseam. The general consensus seems to be that you are more of a controversialist than a constructive conversationalist. I certainly got this impression from the few encounters we've had on the boards.
Perhaps you are misunderstood and unappreciated, but I don't think this attitude is going to change without some serious adjustments.
I'm sure you realize this. It does seem like you have an agenda to discredit the Catholic Faith and in a shameless way. And from our brief dialogues I formed the impression that there may in fact not be a genuine interest in truth, but rather this whole project of yours is a kind of sport. I apologize if I'm wrong.. You are smart enough to realize things, and I'm sure you know the situation much better than I do.. I just wonder what you are thinking..

Cheers

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 07:15 AM']ADDED:

But, of course, Aloyious and CAM will probably tell us that if we've read all the Church's writings as they have, we'd  realize that "white" is really "black" if viewed "in context.

Are they kin to Karl Keating by any chance??? :
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I've been surprised enough times that I really have no problems giving the Church the benefit of the doubt.
I can recall early on in my conversion approaching doctrines which struck me the same way 2 + 2 = 5 would, but after I actually came to grasp the basis of the teaching, and began to truly experience the profundity of the Catholic world-view, I can scarce believe I once thought otherwise.

[Sirklawd]

not allowing catholic vs catholic debate makes perfect sense when considering us lay-people. if you have a problem/disagreement with the church what kind of fool are you to take it up with people like us, who are equally on the bottom rung of the ladder? it does neither you or us any good - unless your true goal is to cause confusion and dissent. if you have a legitimate concern about the catholic teachings and beliefs go to a priest, or a bishop. go to the people that count.

ps: theres a good chance you will be told that if you dont want to be catholic to just not be catholic....(*gasp*)

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sirklawd' date='Aug 20 2005, 09:20 AM']ps: theres a good chance you will be told that if you dont want to be catholic to just not be catholic....(*gasp*)
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I don't think this should ever be the solution.. Maybe some people should admit they aren't Catholic because they don't believe in what the Church is. But I don't think anyone should tell someone not to be Catholic just because they have issues or questions.. That would be showing a disregard for the persons salvation.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Sirklawd' date='Aug 20 2005, 09:20 AM']not allowing catholic vs catholic debate makes perfect sense when considering us lay-people.[/quote]


RESPONSE:

That's right. Lay people are only suppose to believe what they are told to believe.