Michael Brown Tells of the Devestation

[thessalonian]

[quote name='musturde' date='Sep 4 2005, 12:10 PM']This theory is very offensive to the families of the good Christians who died in Hurricane Katrina. If you are to make such a  theory(although i now see where your going with it) , do it after the time of mourning please.
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Your missing the point of the "theory". I am not saying those who died are worse than those who lived or us. I am saying we are all sinners and it is simply that God's alloted time is over for them and they have been judged. I do not by any means believe they all went to hell. Many of them likely are far happier than us. We who still live need to wake up. If that is offensive then so be it. I hope it is. The Gospel is offensive to those who truly need it.

Blessings

[musturde]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Sep 4 2005, 11:27 PM']Your  missing the point of the "theory".  I am not saying those who died are worse than those who lived or us.  I am saying we are all sinners and it is simply that God's alloted time is over for them and they have been judged.  I do not by any means believe they all went to hell.  Many of them likely are far happier than us.  We who still live need to  wake up.  If that is offensive then so be it.  I hope it is.  The Gospel is offensive to those who truly need it.

Blessings
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No, you're playing the blame game. To me, this whole idea is as bad as blaming Bush for the attack. The idea of playing the blame game is very popular when a tragedy occurs. Let the chaos die down a little at least. Not to compare you to the ill mind of Michael Moore but he did the same thing a short time after 9/11 happened and blamed Bush personally for it while we were still mourning. Explanation of a theory can be done a little later. If you still want my view, I can follow your proof but your answer doesn't make sense.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='musturde' date='Sep 4 2005, 11:44 PM']No, you're playing the blame game. To me, this whole idea is as bad as blaming Bush for the attack. The idea of playing the blame game is very popular when a tragedy occurs. Let the chaos die down a little at least. Not to compare you to the ill mind of Michael Moore but he did the same thing a short time after 9/11 happened and blamed Bush personally for it while we were still mourning. Explanation of a theory can be done a little later. If you still want my view,  I can follow your proof but your answer doesn't make sense.
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It doesn't? You can't understand that the city may have been destroyed because of the sins of the people. That those who died aren't neccessarily the damned or the ones who are sinning the worst but simply those who's day to meet the Lord has come. My focus in all of this is not the dead but the living, including ME.

That's not too difficult to understand.

[avemaria40]

I don't think it's our place to judge here but i think that good can come out of bad things. Besides, one of my friends was in college in NO and she got out just in time. If she had died in that hurricane, the last thing i would want to hear is that she was being punished for being a sinner. that' s prob the same for ppl who lost their family members and friends in this hurricane. Besides, didn't Jesus say something about it raining on both the righteous and the sinners?

[cmotherofpirl]

Never discount the hand of God and decide somethng is a purely natural event for you or I have no clue to the extent of the justice and mercy of God.

The entire Old Testament is filled with God intervening and loving and chastising his people. If you want to see it as a warning - fine. If you don't -fine.

And we are in the time of chastisements.

Edited September 5, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Era Might]

The point here is that nobody knows whether Hurricane Katrina was a Divine chastisement. Frankly, it's none of our business. If God wanted us to know His business, he would.

Speculating into secrets of providence that you can know nothing about is not only fruitless, it's dangerous. Everything happens by God's permissive will, everything. So use this as a time to remind yourself, and everyone else, that we know neither the day nor the hour, rather than hypothesizing on judgements of God, which certainly does nothing to bring people closer to Him.

[Joey1976]

There is obviously a reason for Katrina. There is a reason for everything. It is not coincidence that it hit New Orleans. I agree with the author. This country is in for more of this unless we change. Good will come out of this however. God uses suffering and allows bad things to happen so that good will come out of it. Look at the Catholic Church, bad things happened with the priest scandal. And what is happening? The Church is cleaning up it's act and will become stronger and more pure because of the evil that happened.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 5 2005, 10:15 AM']The point here is that nobody knows whether Hurricane Katrina was a Divine chastisement. Frankly, it's none of our business. If God wanted us to know His business, he would.

Speculating into secrets of providence that you can know nothing about is not only fruitless, it's dangerous. Everything happens by God's permissive will, everything. So use this as a time to remind yourself, and everyone else, that we know neither the day nor the hour, rather than hypothesizing on judgements of God, which certainly does nothing to bring people closer to Him.
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No we do know. God does in fact chastise the ones he loves. Heb 12 clearly says that.:

6: For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

This verse is not about those who have died. For they have met their creator and their chastizement is over. They are either on to peace and eternal glory or eternal damnation. Those who live however (including us who will suffer from it) MUST see that suffering as chastisement for our sins or suffering for our sanctification and for the offering up for the sins of others. Otherwise it is simply useless misery.

[|gnat|]

Are you kidding me? And why did you say that the martyring of the Hewbrews by the Romans was Divine Judgement? Are you God? There will be a final judgement at the second coming of Christ.


Sh_t happens. It is as simple as that.

[Era Might]

[quote]No we do know. [/quote]

No, we don't know. Just because God chastises the ones he loves doesn't mean Hurricane Katrina was such a chastisement, anymore than the woman who murdered Brother Roger was a chastisement.

Nobody knows how when and where God chooses to chastise those he loves. It's none of our business. Our duty is to live our faith, and let God worry about chastising whom he will chastise. There's a reason he doesn't whisper into our ear every time he chastises someone. It shouldn't matter. We should bear witness to Jesus Christ. We shouldn't have to rely on guesses and rants about this and that possibly being a chastisement.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='|gnat|' date='Sep 5 2005, 05:50 PM']Are you kidding me?  And why did you say that the martyring of the Hewbrews by the Romans was Divine Judgement?  Are you God?  There will be a final judgement at the second coming of Christ.
Sh_t happens.  It is as simple as that.
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Jesus fortold the destruction of the temple and the events surrounding it. That's not a random act but God's divine judgement. If you don't believe the scriptures in this matter then what do you beleive. And no, sh does not happen. All happens for God's purposes. He is in control. Nothing happens that he does not let happen, though he is not the formal cause of evil. Yet all evil brings about his people's sanctification and so the end result is we know he wins. He brings turns the evil prompted by the devil in to good in the souls of men by his grace. That is the foolishness of the world, that those who follow the devil think they can thwart his plan.

No, I am not God. I am offended that you would say such a thing. Who do you think you are.
All who die face God's judgement at death. That's what the Church teaches. You can make up your own story I suppose but it is wrong.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 5 2005, 06:08 PM']No, we don't know. Just because God chastises the ones he loves doesn't mean Hurricane Katrina was such a chastisement, anymore than the woman who murdered Brother Roger was a chastisement.[/quote]

Do you read? Apparently not. I didn't say those who died were chastised. Their time was simply up. Their chastisement is over as was Roger's. Hopefully he took his chastisement as an opportunity for growth. May he rest in peace. All suffering works to the good of man. That is simple scripture.

[quote]Nobody knows how when and where God chooses to chastise those he loves. It's none of our business.[/quote]

I guess I'll just throw my bible out then. Suffering is a chastisement for sin. It is our business to preach this fact so that those who suffer can see it as their cross and unite it to the cross of Christ for the redemption of their sins and those of others.

[quote] Our duty is to live our faith, and let God worry about chastising whom he will chastise. There's a reason he doesn't whisper into our ear every time he chastises someone. It shouldn't matter. We should bear witness to Jesus Christ. We shouldn't have to rely on guesses and rants about this and that possibly being a chastisement.[/quote]


[Men need to understand chastisement so they can bear up to it. Are you saying that priests should not preach Heb 12. It says "God chastises those whom he loves". We today are afraid of our command to admonish the sinner and let him know that he will suffer for his sins. That is none of our business if someone is sinning or not we say. To admonish the sinner is a virtue. We have made it in to something dirty. If we do not do it God judges us. I do hope you went to Mass yesterday and paid attention to the first reading.

By the way, I think the NO thing is a chastisement for my own sins. I will suffer because of it. I am not innocent as your post seems to think some men are. I am MORE guilty when I sin, because I have the teachings of the ONE, HOLY,CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH and it's grace to keep me from sin. "If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him."

Blessings

Edited September 5, 2005 by thessalonian

[Era Might]

[quote]Do you read? [/quote]

No. Books on tape. They're a life saver. It's tough to get Phatmass posts on tape, but I found a company to do it.

[quote]Hopefully he took his chastisement as an opportunity for growth. May he rest in peace.[/quote]

Just because something bad happens doesn't mean it's a chastisement. Man has free will, and nature has an order by which it naturally operates. God respects these choices. He PERMITS everything, but just because he permits something bad doesn't mean he permits it to serve as a chastisement. Just the opposite. He usually permits bad things to be a blessing in disguise.

[quote]Suffering is a chastisement for sin.[/quote]

Suffering in general is a punishment for ORIGINAL sin. Particular instances of suffering may or may not be chastisement for ACTUAL sin. We cannot know when such a chastisement is given. The Spirit blows where he will.

[quote]Are you saying that priests should not preach Heb 12. It says "God chastises those whom he loves". [/quote]

Of course they should. What they SHOULDN'T do is pretend to know when something is a chastisement for a particular sin. God alone knows such questions.

[quote] To admonish the sinner is a virtue. We have made it in to something dirty.[/quote]

Admonishing the sinner doesn't necessitate us to pretend to know the who where what and when God chooses to chastise particular sins. We admonish the sinner by preaching Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Nobody is going to convert because some religious fanatic gets on television and tells them their grandmother was wiped out by Katrina because New Orleans is evil. Our message needs to be that we have here no lasting home. It doesn't matter if we are in the midst of triumph or tragedy. We must always subject our wills to that of the Most High.

Chastisement is not limited to natural evil. Indeed, God can allow good things to serve as a chastisement. For example, he may allow a man to get rich to chastise him for his greed. Riches aren't evil in themselves. But they can serve as a chastisement. Nevertheless, we can't go around telling every rich man their riches are a chastisement, because we can't know such things. Let God worry about the knowledge of particular chastisements. Let's worry about preaching Jesus Christ.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Era Might

[Joey1976]

Everything happens for a reason. Sh just doesn't happen. And if we don't speculate why something happened and don't learn from it than what is the point of something happening at all. The fact of the matter is, this country must change or more of this will continue to happen until we wake up. I beleive the author is correct.

[Era Might]

[quote]And if we don't speculate why something happened and don't learn from it than what is the point of something happening at all. [/quote]

You can't learn from something if it's not a chastisement?

Let's suppose Katrina WAS a chastisement. What does it change?

It changes nothing. All it does is attach sensationalistic baggage to our witness to Jesus Christ. We can proclaim Jesus Christ without speculating on things we know nothing about. Rather than hypothesizing whether or not Katrina was a chastisement from God, send a donation and do something useful.

[quote]Many wish to know simply from curiosity and a taste for the sensational, but they forget that knowledge also implies responsibility. They only seek the satisfaction of their curiosity, and that is dangerous if at the same time they are not disposed to do something, and if they are convinced that it is impossible to do anything against evil.

[The Rosary] is the remedy against this evil. Pray, pray, and ask for nothing more. Leave everything else to the Mother of God.

--Pope John Paul II[/quote]

[avemaria40]

To Era Might: mille grazie! muchos gracias!

[thessalonian]

That John the Baptist was crying out in the desert, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Era says this is outdated. Just send money now. How do you know what I do and don't do?
Your judgement on me is duly noted Era. I'll not waste any more time with your "wisdom".

[Era Might]

John the Baptist said repent, for the Kingdom is at hand.

He didn't say repent, for God made you stub your toe this morning as a chastisement for your gossip.

My comment about sending in a donation was not directed to anyone in specific. I'm speaking about EVERYONE, including myself. We need to live out the Gospel, and not waste time on useless speculations.

And for the record, I have no wisdom. That's why I listen to books on tape.

Peace.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Era Might

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 5 2005, 08:11 PM'] .
He didn't say repent, for God made you stub your toe this morning as a chastisement for your gossip.
[/quote]

Do you always make such stupid arguements?

[Era Might]

[quote] Do you always make such stupid arguements? [/quote]

Almost exclusively. :

Edited September 6, 2005 by Era Might