*Cough Cough*

[kateri05]

and as for you mrs. bro, don't be so hard on yourself! i would definitely take Sojourner's advice on meditating on St. Paul. you're such a wonderful example of Catholic living now that I'm sure God was slowly working you this way the whole time

[Sojourner]

Thanks for the clarification, kateri!

[Brother Adam]

Jesus never said divorce is possible. Moses merely alllowed a "writ of divorce" so they won't murder their wives. Spiritual divorce is about as possible as un-baptizing someone.

[Sojourner]

OK, and I'm asking this out of pure ignorance (and laziness because I am not looking it up myself) but in the catechism it says:
2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.

Now, in this case, would the marriage be annulled, or would the wronged spouse be granted some sort of freedom from the covenant they'd entered?

[musturde]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 6 2005, 03:50 PM']Jesus never said divorce is possible. Moses merely alllowed a "writ of divorce" so they won't murder their wives. Spiritual divorce is about as possible as un-baptizing someone.
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Exactly, if the marriage was forced upon someone, then it's not seen in the eyes of God as a marriage. That would make the anullment process go a lot faster. I don't get what this post was quoted for. What's wrong with divorce for abuse or adultery?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Divorce is not allowed by God. Period. Check the Catechism

[franciscanheart]

[i hope you dont mind my small interuption to tell you that im glad to see you around again.]

[argent_paladin]

That's not quite true. Divorce is not allowed by the Church. Comma.
1. A valid, nonconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Pope, with both parties' approval. See CIC 1142
2. Like the baptists, if two not Christians are married and one gets baptized and cannot pratice the faith because of the spouse (or if the spouse abandons or divorces her unwillingly), that person may be dissolved "in favor of the faith" (Pauline Priviege). See CIC 1143
3.The Petrine Privilege, when one party was originally baptized, is reserved to the Pope only,and is quite rare.

All of these are dissolutions of valid, natural (nonsacramental) marriages. Therefore, it is not quite accurate to say that the Church doesn't allow divorce. It can be harmful to say that because, in some situations described earlier, a wife who is abandoned by her abusive, non-Christian husband through no fault of her own, might think that her only choice is to seek an annullment or stay single for the rest of her life. That is clearly not the case.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 7 2005, 02:19 PM']That's not quite true. Divorce is not allowed by the Church. Comma.
1. A valid, nonconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Pope, with both parties' approval. See CIC 1142
2. Like the baptists, if two not Christians are married and one gets baptized and cannot pratice the faith because of the spouse (or if the spouse abandons or divorces her unwillingly), that person may be dissolved "in favor of the faith" (Pauline Priviege). See CIC 1143
3.The Petrine Privilege, when one party was originally baptized, is reserved to the Pope only,and is quite rare.

All of these are dissolutions of valid, natural (nonsacramental) marriages. Therefore, it is not quite accurate to say that the Church doesn't allow divorce. It can be harmful to say that because, in some situations described earlier, a wife who is abandoned by her abusive, non-Christian husband through no fault of her own, might think that her only choice is to seek an annullment or stay single for the rest of her life. That is clearly not the case.
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Thanks. That's what I thought the CCC was saying in the quote I posted, but I wanted to be sure.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 7 2005, 03:19 PM']That's not quite true. Divorce is not allowed by the Church. Comma.
1. A valid, nonconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Pope, with both parties' approval. See CIC 1142
2. Like the baptists, if two not Christians are married and one gets baptized and cannot pratice the faith because of the spouse (or if the spouse abandons or divorces her unwillingly), that person may be dissolved "in favor of the faith" (Pauline Priviege). See CIC 1143
3.The Petrine Privilege, when one party was originally baptized, is reserved to the Pope only,and is quite rare.

All of these are dissolutions of valid, natural (nonsacramental) marriages. Therefore, it is not quite accurate to say that the Church doesn't allow divorce. It can be harmful to say that because, in some situations described earlier, a wife who is abandoned by her abusive, non-Christian husband through no fault of her own, might think that her only choice is to seek an annullment or stay single for the rest of her life. That is clearly not the case.
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Okay, so non-sacramental marriages may be divorced...I don't think that's what the people in this thread meant, but it's nice to point it out.

In scenario number one, though...I thought consummation was necessary for validity and no consummation meant "really easy annullment"...

[argent_paladin]

No. The marriage is valid at consent. That is called ratum tantum. If one needed consumation for valid marriage, then Mary and Joseph were never validly married. A consummated marriage is called ratum et consummatum. It is then considered indissolvable.
And I don't think that a natural but not sacramental marriage's dissolvability is a minor point. There are many people who were married before becoming Catholic or who are married to a non-Catholic. It happens more than you think.

[morostheos]

So then what is needed for a marriage to be sacramental?? Is that only when someone is married in the Catholic Church? I thought other marriages were sacramental too though....