The creation of dogma - Original sin

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 10:22 PM']RESPONSE:

Like the obvious common sense fact provable by the senses that the sun revolves around the earth?
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Good ole baiting, and no debating. My my my...

[LittleLes]

[quote name='DeeDee' date='Sep 7 2005, 05:59 PM']Hey, how come those scary quotes didn't appear?????  About the bad woman? bad girl bad girl
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RESPONSE:

Yes indeed! From the great Church Father Tertullian c 200 (who is the chap who gave original sin it's name, I'm told):

"You (woman) are the devil's gateway; you are the unsealer of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law; you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image man. On account of your desert - that is death- even the Son of God had to die."

Bad girl, bad girl! :

[LittleLes]

DeeDee, the first quote I suspect you're misreading. All it says is that we are conceived with sin on us. That is a well-established and central dogma of Christianity and it's apostasy to deny it.

RESPONSE:

No. It's not well established. The "sin on us" or "stain" theory was developed by Augustine's reading of a mistranslation of Romans, as we shall see.

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Sep 7 2005, 09:09 PM']You lost me with the condescending beginning.

You don't debate, Les, you insult and make points based on your assumptions. That's baiting, not debating.
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RESPONSE:

"It's important that our conclusions be correct. It's not important that they be popular."

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 10:39 PM']RESPONSE:

"It's important that our conclusions be correct. It's not important that they be popular."
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I do not see how this justifies baiting.

Please try again.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Sep 7 2005, 09:44 PM']I do not see how this justifies baiting.

Please try again.
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RESPONSE:

Your assertion, not mine. Any evidence this time?

[Paladin D]

Ahem...


[quote name='Winchester']You lost me with the condescending beginning.

You don't debate, Les, you insult and make points based on your assumptions. That's baiting, not debating.[/quote]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 10:39 PM']RESPONSE:

"It's important that our conclusions be correct. It's not important that they be popular."
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How does your "quote" fit in with his complaint about your tactics, especially with the insulting and baiting?

[Socrates]

Different day, same old LittleLes carp.

Wasn't Catholic vs. Catholic debate banned here?

And you've already repeated this nonsense before. The doctrine of Original Sin is clearly laid out in St. Paul's writings. But we already know you reject St. Paul, along with most of the Bible, so what's the point?

You're a tiresome bore, LittleLes.

[cmotherofpirl]

No catholic on catholic debate is permitted.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 7 2005, 10:56 PM']No catholic on catholic debate is permitted.
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what about Catholic vs. "Catholic"?

[IcePrincessKRS]

I think as long as Les claims to be Catholic it qualifies as Catholic vs. Catholic, no qoutation marks. Even though we know he doesn't represent and show real Church teaching he seems to think he is.

I just think he needs a new hobby.

[White Knight]

Littleless same old tricks.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 7 2005, 10:56 PM']No catholic on catholic debate is permitted.
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RESPONSE:

So if a Catholic claims on Phatmass that the sun revolves around the earth , it has to be accepeted and not challenged by another Catholic?

Does this type of restriction come from Catholic practice that once the Church says something it can never be questioned?

LittleLes

[Paladin D]

I guess I'll bring this up again...


[quote name='Winchester']You lost me with the condescending beginning.

You don't debate, Les, you insult and make points based on your assumptions. That's baiting, not debating.[/quote]

[quote name='Littleles']RESPONSE:

"It's important that our conclusions be correct. It's not important that they be popular."  [/quote]


How does your "quote" fit in with his complaint about your tactics, especially with the insulting and baiting?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 8 2005, 07:23 AM']RESPONSE:

So if a Catholic claims on Phatmass that the sun revolves around the earth , it has to be accepeted and not challenged by another Catholic?

Does this type of restriction come from Catholic practice that once the Church says something it can never be questioned?

LittleLes
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Are you the "master baiter"?

[Paladin D]

Double post.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 10:36 PM']DeeDee, the first quote I suspect you're misreading. All it says is that we are conceived with sin on us. That is a well-established and central dogma of Christianity and it's apostasy to deny it.

RESPONSE:

No. It's not well established. The "sin on us" or "stain" theory was developed by Augustine's reading of a mistranslation of Romans, as we shall see.

LittleLes
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This coming from someone who doesn't accept the Gospel of John...

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Sep 8 2005, 07:47 AM']I guess I'll bring this up again...
How does your "quote" fit in with his complaint about your tactics, especially with the insulting and baiting?
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RESPONSE:

Your claim. And evidence?

I think most readers realize that you don't have an argument to present, so you are falling back on the old "ad hominum" ploy to divert the discussion.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 08:43 AM'] This coming from someone who doesn't accept the Gospel of John...
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RESPONSE:

You need to do some serious reading. This discuassion involves the writings of Augustine (not in the Bible) and Paul's Romans (in the Bible).

The Gospel of the writers we term John isn't involved.

[LittleLes]

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

As has been shown, unless one wants to believe that all living things were created in six days (the Genesis legend), the claim that Adam's sin was the cause of death entering the world is spurious. Animals were being born and dying long before the human animal evolved.

And the Catholic claim - which would clearly be an injustice - that all men became sinners because of Adam's Original Sin is clearly contrary to a number of Old Testament passages:

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." Ezek 18:20. See also Deut 24:16, 2 king 14.6, Ezek 33:20, and Jer 31: 29-30.

So the dogma of Original Sin is contrary to both science and scripture.

Those interested in this topic might want to read a similar thread on Beliefnet Catholic Debate.

Beliefnet does not restrict Catholic debate with Catholics.