NFP

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:17 AM']I never said we need to define "is" or anything of the sort.  You can stop with the personal attacks.  All I'm saying is that your terminology was confusing.  Get over it.

NFP does "use" ovulation in the sense of actual use, because it makes use of it, but it does not manage the usage, that is, there is no control exerted over the usage in this sense over the ovulation.  Ovulation itself is not affected.
[right][snapback]715519[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]



there was no personal attack just a friendly jab a little sensitive today arn't we.


And the Ovultions use How it is used both in purpose and in practicality is affected.

[Nicole8223]

I gotta go with Raphael here. A couple using NFP does not in any way change a women's ovulation. They use what naturally occurs to make educated decisions. They are not manipulating anything....they are managing their household, if you really wanna use that word "manage".

My NFP classes start on Wednesday and I can't wait. I'll go with the Church's ruling on this one!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:20 AM']there was no personal attack just a friendly jab  a little sensitive today arn't we.
And the Ovultions use  How it is used both in purpose and in practicality is affected.
[right][snapback]715525[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Yes, but no one is managing the functional usage of the ovulation, that is, the ovulation stays completely intact. No management is exerted on it, but only on the observations of it, only on the use of it.

[Don John of Austria]

an d so its use is directed, ie it is managed, ie it is manipulated, no change needs be exerted for it to be manipulated.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:43 AM']an d so its use is directed, ie it is managed, ie it is manipulated, no change needs be exerted for it to be manipulated.
[right][snapback]715557[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I simply can't agree. I think you're taking the word in the wrong connotation if you can't see what I'm saying.

[Theoketos]

Don Jon, personal attack or friendly jab, it was uncharitable.

[Carrie]

I guess the end times aren't that close after all. The bickering continues.

[Sojourner]

I don't think it was uncharitable. And Raphael, I think DJ understands perfectly what you're saying, he's just using manipulate in a different sense than you were, which isn't wrong. So give it up.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:13 AM']I guess the end times aren't that close after all.  The bickering continues.
[right][snapback]715624[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
And good thing, too. I was getting worried.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:16 PM']And good thing, too. I was getting worried.
[right][snapback]715637[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Me too! I still have alot of shaping up to do!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 12:16 PM']I don't think it was uncharitable. And Raphael, I think DJ understands perfectly what you're saying, he's just using manipulate in a different sense than you were, which isn't wrong. So give it up.
[right][snapback]715635[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
He most certainly doesn't understand what I'm saying, or else he'd agree with me. :

It's not a matter of "sense." I gave it up with him, so stop making it an issue between the two of us.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 12:06 PM']He most certainly doesn't understand what I'm saying, or else he'd agree with me. :

It's not a matter of "sense."  I gave it up with him, so stop making it an issue between the two of us.
[right][snapback]715718[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Umm ... I didn't make it an issue between the two of you. You did that yourself, silly. :

But I'm glad you've given it up.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:03 AM']I'm still going back and forth as to what I think about NFP, but I'm tending to lean towards your view on this, mainly because of what Zach said ...
I know not all couples who use NFP use it out of bad intentions, and quite honestly who am I to judge the intents of any couple's hearts? But so often people talk about NFP the same way they talk about birth control, and that bothers me. It just doesn't sit well with me. I like NFP much better than contraception, but when I think about it from a theological standpoint I just have trouble seeing that there's proper justification for it in the way lots of people use it.
[right][snapback]715386[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Who said that?

[Colleen]

[quote name='Sojourner']I'm still going back and forth as to what I think about NFP, but I'm tending to lean towards your view on this, mainly because of what Zach said ...
[quote]Those that are agianst NFP for birth control find that it is still an attempt to manipulate sex so that one gets the pleasure of sex without truely being open to life, it is a matter of intentionallity. The intent of NFP is often to not have children( it can of course be used to have children) and Traditionalist Catholics often oppose it on the grounds that it defies the meaning of sex and Divine Providence.[/quote][/quote]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 8 2005, 12:23 PM']Who said that?
[right][snapback]715738[/snapback][/right][/quote]
It was actually Don John.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 7 2005, 07:31 PM']Those that are agianst NFP  for birth control find that it is still an attempt to manipulate sex so that one gets the pleasure of sex without truely being open to life, it is a matter of intentionallity. The intent of NFP is often to not have children( it can of course be used to have children) and Traditionalist Catholics often oppose it on the grounds that it defies the meaning of sex and Divine Providence.
[right][snapback]714800[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[Sojourner]

Ooops, sorry about that!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 8 2005, 12:23 PM']Who said that?
[right][snapback]715738[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I said it, but my name isn't Zach

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:02 AM']Don Jon, personal attack or friendly jab, it was uncharitable.
[right][snapback]715609[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I don't think it was uncharitable, not when someone is debating the word use.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]He most certainly doesn't understand what I'm saying, or else he'd agree with me. [/quote]


Ah Raphael its times like this, you remind me of me.

[Oik]

I'm not sure I am clear on the debate here.

How exactly is NFP wrong when:

first of all, several methods are/can be employed
and
Secdondly, NFP, when practiced correctly fosters dignity, respect, and understanding betweeb the couple when it comes to sexuality? NFP is inherently Pro-life.

I especially don't understnad the claim that it is and/or can foster a contraceptive mentality.


Ex. Ecological Breastfeeding, when used effectively, surpresses a woman's cycle. If her and her husband share the marital embrace, are you saying that this is fostering a contraceptive mentality?

In the end, it is God's will anyways.

Please explain.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:14 PM']I'm not sure I am clear on the debate here.

How exactly is NFP wrong when:

first of all, several methods are/can be employed
and
Secdondly, NFP, when practiced correctly fosters dignity, respect, and understanding betweeb the couple when it comes to sexuality? NFP is inherently Pro-life.

I especially don't understnad the claim that it is and/or can foster a contraceptive mentality.
Ex. Ecological Breastfeeding, when used effectively, surpresses a woman's cycle. If her and her husband share the marital embrace, are you saying that this is fostering a contraceptive mentality?

In the end, it is God's will anyways.

Please explain.
[right][snapback]715805[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Using NFP intentionally so that one can have sex while preventing the having of a child is a contrcepive mentality. That breastfeeding suppresses fertility is irrelevant that is not the intent of breastfeeding, it is a side affect, NFP has no such primary goal.