Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [url="http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050909/NEWS01/509090524/1006/NEWS01"]Here's the story ... [/url]
Cam42 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 Noaker is an ambulance chaser for priestly scandals. He has been doing it for years..... Shame on him.
zabbazooey Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 These people are pathetic.... I highly doubt any of their allegations are true!
Piccoli Fiori JMJ Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote]"The abuse was quite significant," said Noaker, whose client says his memories of the abuse returned in September 2003. "He had a form of amnesia or repressed memory."[/quote] This is where psych comepletely looses me... I'm sorry if this did happen, but when suddenly these things pop up after such a long time... Seriously, I don't think I would ever be able to forget about anything like that for that amount of time. Why is pyschology the answer to everything wrong in society? [quote]Noaker said his client sued because he didn't think archdiocesan officials were taking his abuse claims seriously. However, Borcherts said the man canceled his meeting with archdiocesan officials three weeks ago.[/quote] Idiot! Yes, let make this totally out of portportion and act in an extremely uncivilized manner...
Aloysius Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 even if the abuse did happen, and even if the bishop failed to do enough to stop it, these lawsuits are absolutely absurd, rediculous, and contrary to divine law. The Church transcends this civil law and who is the United States of America, a 200 year old institution, to tell the Holy Apostolic Church that her bishops are wrong? It is absolutely arrogant. We have jurisdiction over our bishops, we'll tell them when they've handled an issue wrongly. And that's what we're doing now. But the state has absolutely no authority to force the diocese to give the Church's money to it. These people who attack Christ's Church in such a way will answer for their crimes to the Final Judge who has authority over both the Church and the infant country called the "united states of america."
Jaime Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 Sorry to be the dissenting opinion on this but I am. If he was abused, he deserves his day in court. It is right that he sues. It is moral that he sues. If he was abused and wins his case, I believe the Final Judge will take him in his arms and hold him to his bosom.
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 Just as an aside... [quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:14 PM']This is where psych comepletely looses me... I'm sorry if this did happen, but when suddenly these things pop up after such a long time...[/quote] While rare, it is possible. (this issue was completely blown up and abused in the 80's, but its still possible) [quote]Seriously, I don't think I would ever be able to forget about anything like that for that amount of time.[/quote] You can't know that unless you're in the situation. Our defense mechanisms can be very strong. [quote]Why is pyschology the answer to everything wrong in society?[/quote] I don't think a psychologist would ever claim that. Just my .02 cents. Back to the topic...
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:43 PM']Carrie hot stuff Same page [right][snapback]716958[/snapback][/right] [/quote]
Aloysius Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:27 PM']Sorry to be the dissenting opinion on this but I am. If he was abused, he deserves his day in court. It is right that he sues. It is moral that he sues. If he was abused and wins his case, I believe the Final Judge will take him in his arms and hold him to his bosom. [right][snapback]716929[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I really don't see the moral reason the diocese owes him money. if it happened: the priest sinned, it was the priest's fault. as a matter of principal the United States court systems should not have any jurisdiction whatsoever over how bishops discipline their priests. the bishops made mistakes in not dealing with this, and that's being dealt with and no bishop should ever be so stupid again, but the court systems of this infant nation cannot hold jurisdiction over how the bishop governs his diocese. the victim deserves justice to the priest. the priest is the bad guy, the bishop may be the fool who was unable to stop it, but that doesn't mean that diocesan money (all of which is donated by the parishiners, mind you) should go to the victim.
Norseman82 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:27 AM']Sorry to be the dissenting opinion on this but I am. If he was abused, he deserves his day in court. It is right that he sues. It is moral that he sues. If he was abused and wins his case, I believe the Final Judge will take him in his arms and hold him to his bosom. [right][snapback]716929[/snapback][/right] [/quote] In principle I agree, since most of the uproar I've heard over the scandal is not over the fact that there are priests who did this but that it was covered up. But I do have the following caveats: 1) There should be limits so that ALL victims can get compensated. If one victim cleans out the diocese then there is nothing left to compensate another victim. 2) There is always the question of whether a "repressed memory" is truly recovered by a therapist or rather [i]planted[/i] by the therapist.
Norseman82 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:31 PM']I really don't see the moral reason the diocese owes him money. if it happened: the priest sinned, it was the priest's fault. as a matter of principal the United States court systems should not have any jurisdiction whatsoever over how bishops discipline their priests. the bishops made mistakes in not dealing with this, and that's being dealt with and no bishop should ever be so stupid again, but the court systems of this infant nation cannot hold jurisdiction over how the bishop governs his diocese. the victim deserves justice to the priest. the priest is the bad guy, the bishop may be the fool who was unable to stop it, but that doesn't mean that diocesan money (all of which is donated by the parishiners, mind you) should go to the victim. [right][snapback]717013[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Except that child sexual abuse is illegal, so it [i]does[/i] become a legal matter!!!!!!
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:58 PM']2) There is always the question of whether a "repressed memory" is truly recovered by a therapist or rather [i]planted[/i] by the therapist. [right][snapback]717040[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That was the huge issue in the 80s. Which is why I said it is rare, but it can genuinely happen.
Piccoli Fiori JMJ Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 10:32 AM']Just as an aside... While rare, it is possible. (this issue was completely blown up and abused in the 80's, but its still possible) You can't know that unless you're in the situation. Our defense mechanisms can be very strong. I don't think a psychologist would ever claim that. Just my .02 cents. Back to the topic... [right][snapback]716935[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I just don't get psychology... it makes sense, but I just cannot really apply it to things like this. I understand the basics and can apply it towards things for classes, but outside of class... man I'm confused... Psych is just plain old confusing.
Aloysius Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:59 PM']Except that child sexual abuse is illegal, so it [i]does[/i] become a legal matter!!!!!! [right][snapback]717043[/snapback][/right] [/quote] and so the priest should be prosecuted. nothing wrong with that... I'm talking about taking money from the diocese, money donated for the sake of the Church and its charities... I'm talking about the legal system claiming to be able to judge the way the bishop governs his diocese. the state is below the Church in authority. it has no authority over the Church herself, though clergy members are citizens and individually subject the Church itself is transcendent of the state. there is no just reason why diocesan money should be in any way due to these victims. the priests broke the law, but the bishops cannot be punished for the way they discipline their erring priests.
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:15 PM']I just don't get psychology... it makes sense, but I just cannot really apply it to things like this. I understand the basics and can apply it towards things for classes, but outside of class... man I'm confused... Psych is just plain old confusing. [right][snapback]717063[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I love psychology. But you're not alone. Lots of people feel that way about it. I feel that way about biochemistry. :
Jaime Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:36 PM']and so the priest should be prosecuted. nothing wrong with that... I'm talking about taking money from the diocese, money donated for the sake of the Church and its charities... I'm talking about the legal system claiming to be able to judge the way the bishop governs his diocese. the state is below the Church in authority. it has no authority over the Church herself, though clergy members are citizens and individually subject the Church itself is transcendent of the state. there is no just reason why diocesan money should be in any way due to these victims. the priests broke the law, but the bishops cannot be punished for the way they discipline their erring priests. [right][snapback]717086[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Its called responsibility Al. Its everywhere in society. If a teacher violates the trust, the teacher and the school district get sued. Why? Because the school system put the teacher there. No difference with the Church. We all bear responsibility simply by being Catholic.
Aloysius Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 the state does not have authority over the Church's governance of herself. just because that doesn't fit in to the modern state's glorified opinion of itself doesn't make it any less true. to claim that there is no difference between the divine institution of the Church and a mere school system is wrong. the Church transcends the secular law. the law cannot prosecute the Church. this doesn't have it's origin in the Lateran Pact, the Church was always until modern times a seperate independent entity that always claimed the state had no authority over it. but the state thinks it can carpmentalize the Church into another institution to be dealt with like any other institution... and we foolishly allow them to ignoring the temporal power the Church ought to be claiming. I know we don't have much, but the Church ought to at least demand it be free from prosecution regarding the way it governs itself. but alas, we have been tamed and carpmentalized by the state.. it's a sad thing. bishops should be held responsible for the way they govern their diocese by the Roman Pontiff alone.
Jaime Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 In many cases you are correct. Land ownership is one where the Church has no need to recognize local jurisdiction. But when laws are broken, you are completely, totally and utterly wrong. The Church bears responsibility to adhere to the just laws of the land and promote them.
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Author Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:10 PM']the state does not have authority over the Church's governance of herself. just because that doesn't fit in to the modern state's glorified opinion of itself doesn't make it any less true. to claim that there is no difference between the divine institution of the Church and a mere school system is wrong. the Church transcends the secular law. the law cannot prosecute the Church. this doesn't have it's origin in the Lateran Pact, the Church was always until modern times a seperate independent entity that always claimed the state had no authority over it. but the state thinks it can carpmentalize the Church into another institution to be dealt with like any other institution... and we foolishly allow them to ignoring the temporal power the Church ought to be claiming. I know we don't have much, but the Church ought to at least demand it be free from prosecution regarding the way it governs itself. but alas, we have been tamed and carpmentalized by the state.. it's a sad thing. bishops should be held responsible for the way they govern their diocese by the Roman Pontiff alone. [right][snapback]717130[/snapback][/right] [/quote] While the state may have no say in intra-Church governance, it does have a say in how the church relates within the larger societal structure.
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