intersting

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Interesting EWTN "Ask an Expert" Q&A exchange:






Latin Novus Ordo


Question from on 09-08-2005:


Dearest Fr. Levis

God Bless You!

Our former Pastor stated that the Novus Ordo Mass was more historically accurate (going back further in history) than the Tridentine, what could he possibly mean by that? He also said that he once celebrated a Latin Novus Ordo, is that simply what it sounds like?

He also said he need a dispensation to celebrate the Tridentine, is that accurate?

I cannot ask him myself, otherwise I would. He is missed terribly by all in our parish!

Thank you for your reply

Sincerely;

gem


Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 09-09-2005:


Dear Gem, The NOvus Ordo Mass was a complete fabrication or product of its creators, a point of contention within the Church since it has few if any roots in the Tridentine Mass. This point is very important to our present Pope. I have no idea what this priest means by his prioritizing the new Mass over the former. In America at present, no priest is to celebrate the Tridentine Mass without permission of his bishop, without an Indult from the Ecclesia Dei Commission of Rome. God bless. Fr. Bob Levis

[Era Might]

I love Father Levis. He is a Saintly priest.

But...

His comment is woefully inaccurate. The Pauline Missal is substantively identical to the Missal of St. Pius V. Reference the extensive efforts of I. Shawn McIlhenny for a deeper look at the reality.

[Colleen]

A bit of history:

When the Missal for the Tridentine Mass was created in 1570 after the Council of Trent, the Pope (Pope St. Pius V) found it necessary to ensure that Catholics had a reliable, fully Catholic Liturgy, because it was the time of the Reformation and oftentimes Protestant ideas began to infiltrate the Liturgy. Thus, the Pope ordered that the Mass should be celebrated according to this rite (the Tridentine). All other rites were prohibited, the only exceptions being those rites which were over 200 years old.

After the missal for the Pauline Mass, which is now universally celebrated, was created (in 1970), the Tridentine Mass was prohibited, though Pope John Paul II later gave permission to some priests to celebrate Mass according to the Tridentine Missal.

Anyways, what I really wanted to share was this quote from Pope Benedict's memoirs, [i]Milestones[/i], which might help clarify Fr. Levis' comment. I think the following is a great explanation of the importance of understanding the history of the Liturgy. It's also very insightful, for Benedict explains how things can go wrong if people perceive the Mass in the wrong way. The Mass is not something that can be "made,"and oftentimes people get this wrong impression.

[quote name='Pope Benedict XVI as Cardinal Ratzinger' date=' Milestones']"It was reasonable and right of the Council to order a revision of the missal such as had often taken place before and which this time had to be more thorough than before, above all because of the introduction of the vernacular.

But more than this now happened: the old building was demolished, and another was built, to be sure largely using materials from the previous one and even using the old building plans. There is no doubt that this new missal in many respects brought with it a real improvement and enrichment; but setting it as a new construction over against what had grown historically, forbidding the results of this historical growth, thereby makes the liturgy appear to be no longer a living development but the product of erudite work and judicial authority; this has caused us enormous harm. For then the impression had to emerge that the liturgy is something 'made', not something given in advance but something lying within our own power of decision. From this it also follows that we are not to recognize the scholars and the central authority alone as decision makers, but that in the end each and every 'community' must provide itself with its own liturgy. When liturgy is self-made, however, then it can no longer give us what its proper gift should be: the encounter with the mystery that is not our own product but rather our origin and the source of our life. A renewal of liturgical awareness, a liturgical reconciliation that again recognizes the unity of the history of the liturgy and that understands Vatican II, not as a breach, but as a stage of development: these things are urgently needed for the life of the Church. I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy, which at times has even come to be conceived of [i]etsi Deus daretur[/i]: in that it is a matter of indifference whether or not God exists and whether or not he speaks to us and hears us. But when the community of faith, the worldswide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, and activity that is utterly fruitless. And, because the ecclesial community cannot have its origin from itself but emerges as a unity only from the Lord, through faith, such circumstances will inexorably result in a disintegration into sectarian parties of all kinds -- partisan opposition within a Church tearing herself apart. This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council.[/quote]

[Maria]

From what I've heard, etc., the quote seems to say it all. Whereas the missal for the T Mass was created after the Council of Trent, it was more of a regularization of the way the Mass was said. It did not introduce many real changes. The complaint about the Pauline rite is that they had a team of people deciding how things should be, what should go in, etc. I had never thought of it in the sense of the problem of trying to create liturgy, but I've often heard complaints about the artificialness of the way it was made.
The former pastor who thought it was more historically accurate is right in some senses, because when they were putting together the P rite they were trying to make it simpler and more like the way the earlier Church celebrated Mass, so there are a bunch of things that the P rite has in common with what we know of the liturgy of the early Church that the T rite doesn't.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

are u the maria from Avemarisstella?

[Maria]

Yup.
U made me find this place, so it's all your fault. And whatnot. Etc.

Nice knowing your name, though.

And is everyone else here really young? Am I going to have to feel old because I'm 20?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

most people on here are about 20.

we have some as young as 12 and some a more respectable age..

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 9 2005, 06:32 PM']Interesting EWTN "Ask an Expert" Q&A exchange:




Latin Novus Ordo
Question from on 09-08-2005:


Dearest Fr. Levis

God Bless You!

Our former Pastor stated that the Novus Ordo Mass was more historically accurate (going back further in history) than the Tridentine, what could he possibly mean by that? He also said that he once celebrated a Latin Novus Ordo, is that simply what it sounds like?

He also said he need a dispensation to celebrate the Tridentine, is that accurate?

I cannot ask him myself, otherwise I would. He is missed terribly by all in our parish!

Thank you for your reply

Sincerely;

gem


Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 09-09-2005:


Dear Gem, The NOvus Ordo Mass was a complete fabrication or product of its creators, a point of contention within the Church since it has few if any roots in the Tridentine Mass. This point is very important to our present Pope. I have no idea what this priest means by his prioritizing the new Mass over the former. In America at present, no priest is to celebrate the Tridentine Mass without permission of his bishop, without an Indult from the Ecclesia Dei Commission of Rome. God bless. Fr. Bob Levis
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[/quote]

Father Bob is in error, which is rather surprising for him.

[Aloysius]

cmotherofpirl is in error, which is rather surprising for her.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Father Levis said this as well:

he anwsered this post on the same day:

Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo


Question from on 09-07-2005:



I have heard that it may be possible that the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo one day could find together in one rite, where the best elements of both forms will be united. Would this be a good solution or would it be better to have two different forms of liturgy? And if it is better to have two forms, should the Tridentine Mass get equal rights to the Novus Ordo? Thank you and God bless.


Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 09-08-2005:



DEar Alexander, Yes, I also have read in good reasonable sources that this union of the two Masses may well be in the works. I think this action far more reasonable than two rites since, after all, they are identical in many ways. Fr. Bob Levis

[Aloysius]

:

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

hahahahahahaha

[Maria]

I really don't know if a combined rite would be a good idea, since that would be at least as contrived and artificial as the P rite. If it were done by reforming little bits of each liturgy at a time so that eventually they ended up looking the same might be the best way to do it, if they were going to do it at all, though.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I wonder if father levis is a shitzophranic?


(someone had to say it and i know you all where thinking it)

[stargirl3:16]

you mean schizophrenic?

[Aloysius]

I see nothing contradictory in the two statements...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

first he says that the novus ordo is a fabrication than he says that the novus ordo and the tridentine are similar.

what is it father?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 10 2005, 10:36 PM']first he says that the novus ordo is a fabrication than he says that the novus ordo and the tridentine are similar.

what is it father?
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[/quote]
Probably just trying to make the common point that the novus order was not an "organic development" but to some degree a novelty. Which may be true but this in itself doesn't mean much.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

so if the novus ordo is a novlety than how is it similar to the tridentine?

[Aloysius]

it's got the same basic structure, kind of gutted and skeletonized.

the same roman canon is used (though in the NO there are alternatives offered)

but ultimately, a comittee got together and decided what should be in the liturgy and what shouldn't be, as such it is a fabrication. it has broken far from its small roots in the Tridentine and did not organically develope out of the tridentine, but it does have many similarities.