mcCarrick?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

apparently this man is crazy....

[quote]“Traditional Islam: The Path to Peace”

Address by King Abdullah II of Jordan

Remarks by Cardinal Theodore McCarrick

Archbishop of Washington and CUA Chancellor

CUA Columbus School of Law
Sept. 13, 2005





Your Majesty, King Abdullah

Your Majesty Queen Rania

Prince Ghazi

Members of the delegation from the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

Father President

Distinguished guests from many faith communities

Dear friends all,



Your Majesty,



A few months ago, when I was privileged to pray for you on another occasion in this capital city, I asked Allah, the compassionate and merciful Lord of all the world, to bless you and to help you make your country a bridge across which all nations might walk in unity, fellowship and love.  As I listened to your words today, I believe my prayer is being answered.



Indeed, the Amman Message of November of last year is a blueprint and a challenge not only to the great world of Islam, but to the whole human race.  Your thoughtful leadership is a stirring invitation to all of us, especially to the people of the Book, the family of Abraham, who share so much and who are called to be brothers and sisters in God’s one human family.



You have taken to heart the words of Pope Benedict XVI when he addressed the Muslim leaders gathered with him in Germany last month and invited them all to join him in eliminating from all hearts any trace of rancor, in resisting every form of intolerance and in opposing every manifestation of violence.  As you quoted in your splendid talk to us today, Pope Benedict called his listeners, in this way, to turn back the way of cruel fanaticism that endangers the lives of so many people and hinders progress for world peace.



Your Majesty’s call and that of the Holy Father are in so many ways the same.  [b]May Allah, the merciful and compassionate, continue to guide your steps along this noble path.[/b]  May He guide and protect you, your family and your beloved country and may peace and justice come to all lands and all peoples through your efforts, your vision and your courage.



[b]In the name of Allah, the merciful and compassionate God, we pray.  Amen.[/b][/quote]

this is disgusting. a caridnal can not get away with saying that.

[avemaria40]

Allah just means God in Arabic, Arabic Catholics call God Allah.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

but its not apropriate he was talking to muslims


we are roman catholics not arabian catholics.

[Era Might]

Why is it not appropriate?

It is entirely appropriate to make a linguistic point. We do share a common faith in Allah with Muslims. By using the arabic word, a very important point is made that Christianity is above cultural distinction. Christianity is not opposed to the authentic culture of the arabic world. We are not at war with arabs. We seek only to live our faith in God, as we understand him.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

mohamedists and christians do not have the same God. we believe in the trinity they don't.

the word means "God" and is a perfectly good word, one used by Middle Eastern Catholics. As Muslims use it, however, it refers to the god of Mohammed, not the God of Abraham, despite Muslim claims that their god is the God of Abraham. It's easy to determine this: the God of Abraham is One God in Three Divine Persons. The god of the Muslims is not. Ergo, they are not the same. Quite simple. "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father" (I St. John 2:23) -- and this applies to post-Temple Jews, too.

Now, many people say that what the Church has alway taught is wrong, that Jews and Muslims do worship the same God as we, but they simply mischaracterize Him. This might be true if they were silent on the matter of whether God is Triune, whether God is Father, whether God has a Son, etc. But they are not; they don't plead ignorance or a lack of revelation, they positively deny the Truth about God and positively assert untruths about Him (e.g., the Muslim belief that Allah can contradict Himself, can be unjust or unmerciful, etc., the Jewish belief that God can not take on flesh and become man). A Being can't be X and explicitly, specifically, emphatically not X at the same time. Therefore, the Muslim "allah" is not our Allah, and the post-Temple Jewish god is not the God of the Old and New Testaments.

It's fascinating to me that the only people who believe otherwise are New Agers, and very liberal (or non-dispensationalist, with regard to the Jews) Protestants. Muslims don't believe we worship the same God, Jews don't believe we worship the same God, Hindus don't fall for the nonsense, etc. If we can't take Scripture's, the Fathers' and 1,965 years of Popes' word for it, maybe we could listen to the Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, whose teachings, as today's "wisdom" would have it, are so much "cooler" and worthy of respect than traditional Catholicism is deemed to be.

[Era Might]

EENS,

Have you ever considered that a Bishop, a Cardinal of the Church, who was recently retained by Pope Benedict XVI at his See, knows a little more theology than you?

Just a thought.

And you are simply wrong. The Early Church very much understood that Jews and Christians do not believe in different Gods, as we read in St. Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho the Jew:

[quote]There never will be any other God, Trypho, nor has there ever been from eternity...but the One who created and ordered everything that we see; [b]nor do we hold your God to be one and our own to be another, but we acknowledge one and the same, even Him who brought up your forefathers from the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and a stretched-out arm, nor do we put our trust in any other--for there is no other--but only in Him whom you also adore, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[/b] [/quote]

Pope Gregory VII has similar words for Muslims and Christians:

[quote]FOR THERE IS NOTHING WHICH ALMIGHTY GOD, who wishes that all men should be saved and that no man should perish, more approves in our conduct than that a man should first love God and then his fellow men ... Most certainly you and we ought to love each other in this way more than other races of men, because we believe and confess one God, albeit in different ways, whom each day we praise and reverence as the creator of all ages and the governor of this world.[/quote]

Edited September 18, 2005 by Era Might

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

deney the son deney the father.

[Era Might]

I'll cast my lot with St. Justin Martyr, but thanks.

[quote]nor do we hold your [Jewish] God to be one and our own [Christian God] to be another, but we acknowledge [b]one and the same[/b], even Him who brought up your forefathers from the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and a stretched-out arm, nor do we put our trust in any other--for there is no other--but only in Him whom you also adore, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. [/quote]

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

justyn maryr or the bible?

i think Justin maryr was saying that the same god did bring the jews from egypt etc. but the jews do not worship the same god as us nor do they acknowledge him to be one god in 3 parts. they think that god is just the father.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 17 2005, 09:40 PM']justyn maryr or the bible?

i think Justin maryr was saying that the same god did bring the jews from egypt etc. but the jews do not worship the same god as us nor do they acknowledge him to be one god in 3 parts. they think that god is just the father.
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[/quote]

No, the conflict is not between Justin Martyr and the Bible. The conflict is between Justin Martyr and you.

Jews do not believe God is "just the Father". They believe God is God. "The Father" is a Christian concept. It implies a Son.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was not "The Father". It was the Holy Trinity. They did not recognize him as a Trinity, but they worshipped him nonetheless. This has not changed, for Jews or Muslims. And the Church has always recognized that.

I ask again. Have you ever considered a Cardinal of the Church knows more theology than you? Think about it.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Era Might

[brendan1104]

as one priest told me:

"Deny 1 Person of the Blessed Trinity, you deny Them All."

Catholics do not worship the false god of the Jews or Muslims.

[Era Might]

[quote]We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection."

--Pope John Paul II

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM[/url][/quote]

Edited September 18, 2005 by Era Might

[Theoketos]

[zwergel88]

that was the same quote by the Holy Father that I was just going to mention.

I think it is an established fact that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in the same God.

[Era Might]

Oops, wrong thread.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Era Might

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
9/18 - Twenty-fifth Sunday

BTW, to say that the Jews worship a false God smells strongly of Marcionism, a heresy of the early Church.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

just because jp2 said moslems worship the same god as us dosen't make it true.

jews do worship the same god, but they think of him in the wrong way, therefore they are not really worshiping the same god.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 07:51 AM']just because jp2 said moslems worship the same god as us dosen't make it true.

jews do worship the same god, but they think of him in the wrong way, therefore they are not really worshiping the same god.
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[/quote]
How wrong do you have to be before you are worshipping a different God?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

denying the trinity

[zwergel88]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 07:51 AM']just because jp2 said moslems worship the same god as us dosen't make it true.

jews do worship the same god, but they think of him in the wrong way, therefore they are not really worshiping the same god.
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[/quote]


I disagree, I think that because JP2 said it, it is definately true. I'm not sure if you think that Jews worship the same God or not, but supposing they do (they do), their view isn't any different from the Muslims. Muslims believe in the God that is connected with the same set of events as the Christian God, they don't have the whole picture but it is the same God nonetheless, the God of Abraham. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God because we all believe in Abraham. Allah simply means God in Arabic which others have already pointed out, it's no different from mentioning God in any other language, and was appropriate for Cardinal McCarick to use because he was speaking to an Arab audience.