mcCarrick?

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:51 AM']just because jp2 said moslems worship the same god as us dosen't make it true. [/quote]

Just because you said Muslims don't worship the same god as us doesn't make it true. No [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks, please, especially against a pope of your Church. When a pope makes an unambiguously heretical statement, then I might side with you, but I have yet to see that happen in nearly 2000 years of papal pronouncements. Heck, I've yet to see one that is [i]ambiguously[/i] heretical, including the jp2 quote above.

[quote]jews do worship the same god, but they think of him in the wrong way, therefore they are not really worshiping the same god.
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You know what you just said? Jews worship the same god. Therefore, they don't. That makes no sense.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

EENS... it's in the Catechism.
[quote]841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/quote]

When Paul made reference to the pagans belief in God because they had erected an altar to the "unknown god", was he too, also wrong?


PS- for the Jews:
[quote]839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[/quote]

[Seven77]

my two cents---EENS,

1. i think it is very disrespectful to refer to a Cardinal of the Catholic Church as 'crazy'.

2. what languge do you suppose Catholics in the Middle East speak for the most part? [b]Arabic.[/b] when speaking Arabic they
say "Allah" not "God". before Islam even existed what do you think the early Christians of Arabia called the Triune God? Allah!

"God" wasn't even used in the Early Church as it has Germanic origins :bugeyes:

you know, i think you better not use "Deus" anymore...

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608x.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608x.htm[/url]

Edited September 18, 2005 by Seven77

[jgirl]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Sep 17 2005, 10:52 PM']as one priest told me:

"Deny 1 Person of the Blessed Trinity, you deny Them All."

Catholics do not worship the false god of the Jews or Muslims.
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Random question...

Jesus, who was a Jew, prayed to His Father, who is our Father. How does that work if the Jews worship a "false God?"

Your logic doesn't hold up.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the jews believe god is not a trinity. therefore a different god.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:36 PM']the jews believe god is not a trinity. therefore a different god.
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You deny the Catechism?

It's not a different god. There is ONLY 1 God. And He IS the Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit regardless of whether Jews or Muslims, or even atheists choose to recognize that fact. Those who believe that God is not a Trinity misunderstand who God truly is.

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 10:36 PM']the jews believe god is not a trinity. therefore a different god.
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Just because their understanding of the Messiah is incomplete doesn't mean that they worship an entirely different God. Just because they don't completely grasp the mystery of His trinitarian existence doesn't mean that they are not still His chosen people, who still worship Him as best they can.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the catechism isn't always right

[dspen2005]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 17 2005, 08:24 PM']Allah just means God in Arabic, Arabic Catholics call God Allah.
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as someone else mentioned, i think EENS, His Eminence was not speaking w/ Arabic Catholics. He was speaking w/ Muslims, who have a completely different understanding of God. It is soo different, that we do not worship the same God.... that is a pernicious error spread about that Christians and Muslims all worship the same God... we DO NOT!!!

[Era Might]

[quote]that is a pernicious error spread about that Christians and Muslims all worship the same God... we DO NOT!!! [/quote]

Pernicious error? John Paul II, Pope, Bishop of Rome, Successor to St. Peter, thought otherwise.

[quote]We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection."[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

And this is WHY you are phishy - because you are not faithful to CATHOLIC teaching.

There is one ONE GOD out there. Just cause some people have incorrect notions of HIM does not makes HIM a different GOD.!!!!!!

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 10:00 PM']the catechism isn't always right
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Sam, we've been through this before....while the Catechism may not be infallible, it is a sure norm for teaching the Catholic faith.

You can't simply dismiss part of the Catechism because you don't like it.

[quote name='CCC #18']This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole. Numerous cross-references in the margin of the text (numbers found at the end of a sentence referring to other paragraphs that deal with the same theme), as well as the analytical index at the end of the volume, allow the reader to view each theme in its relationship with the entirety of the faith.[/quote]

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): "This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: 'your father is the devil' [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel."

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 10:37 PM']St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): "This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: 'your father is the devil' [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel."
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[u]We are not going thru this whole spiel again about the Catechism AGAIN[/u].
St Cyrian is not infallible, but the Catechism contains infallible teachings.

You can either believe it or not, be catholic or not,. its up to you.

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 11:37 PM']St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): "This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: 'your father is the devil' [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel."
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Even though the Jews were constantly unfaithful to God, He was ALWAYS faithful to them. ALWAYS. And He still is.

[dspen2005]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp[/url]

[zwergel88]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:37 PM']St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): "This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: 'your father is the devil' [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel."
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What about the Jews who were around before the time of Christ? What God did they belive in? What about all of the apostles and Jesus Himself who were Jews? Did the other Jews automatically began to worship an alternate God the minute we began to believe in the Trinity.

There is only one God and therefore you could probably argue that everyone on Earth worships the same God. Christians, Jews, and Muslims without a doubt worship the same God becasue they believe in a similar set of events i.e. Abraham, Moses, etc.

Pope John Paul the Second made clear that Jew, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God so we should all stop arguing about it and accept it.

Jews+Christians+Muslims = same God

Anna

[Oik]

One can hold Muslims do not worship the same God as Christians.
One can hold that they do.

I don't think, in my personal opinion that they do.

The Melkite Catholic Church (they are in union with Rome) use the word Allah. The word Allah means God. Other Arabic speaking Eastern Christians do the same as well.

So, I do not think His Eminence was wrong. Indeed, I see it as an ecumenical gesture. Cardinal McCarrick is loyal to the Church, we owe him the respect of his position and authority.

Let us not judge and in this case give the benefit of the doubt.



May God Bless you,
Chelsea