creation and evolution

[Brother Adam]

You are mistaking pure conjecture for observable physical science, as you yourself just admitted, no one even accepts Darwin anymore. And you can't just take a theory of origins by athiests and slap a "God Did It" sticker on it to make everything alright. Nature is beautiful, and life is amazing, but the Bible did infallibly tell us that out of the dust God created man. Just as you can't put God under a microscope, you can't explain away our creation as a theory from the pens of those who dispised and hated God.

"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remain of the son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."-- Richard Bozarth

No one is asking you to ignore patterns, but consider first what has been revealed by Divine Revelation. Remember, if Adam and Eve never existed because creation did not happen like that, then the entire geneology of Christ is shot, and thus either does Christ exist. And if Adam and Eve are real historical persons (which the Church tells us is a matter that we must believe, along with that there were no other humans when they existed), then it only makes sense that the rest of the story is true too. With God being outside of time, it is possible He originated the physical outside of time as well, or at least outside of our concept of time. Have you ever seen those movies where they show timeshots of a plant growing and make it look like it grew from a seedling to a gaint oak in about 2 minutes? Just a thought of course. Oik has some excellent posts in the Debate Table on the incompatibility of evolution with Christianity from more philosophical and theological view.

[White Knight]

[quote name='heavenseeker' date='Sep 19 2005, 05:45 PM']but at the same time there are sure signs of evolution. but then again some would just call them adaptation within the species.
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Those are mostly forgeries my friend, and Evolutionists will admit to that, that its not fully or even at all creditable evidence.

[theculturewarrior]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii...generis_en.html[/url]

[Brother Adam]

[img]http://www.unitedwaycg.com/photos/merry-go-round.jpg[/img]

[hierochloe]

HAHAHAAAA!!! That's a good one, Bro.

Until a better scientific theory explaining the origin of species is proposed, I'm sticking with evolution - and no, not the evolution made up by atheists to explain away the soul and refute God or whatever else they may have attempted.

[infinitelord1]

no way man........its not a sin to believe that at all. Evolution happened whether we are frightened by this theory or not. I think God created us through evolution. It certainly doesnt say that there is no god. My personal belief is that the second creation story is talking about evolution.........i.e. god made man from the mud.........but that is just me.
When has god ever just magically created something in the physical realm? Usually a lot of time and growing is involved. Why didnt he just create jesus and descend him from the clouds? In stead, God chose a more realistic approach.........birth.........he didnt want to make things too obvious for us because then we wouldnt have a choice........if people knew that jesus was god then they would have no other choice than to believe in him. I think the same applies to evolution.

Edited September 20, 2005 by infinitelord1

[heavenseeker]

ok how does a simple question turn into a argument. go to your seperate corners and stay there. its now called adaption no more evolution.

Edited September 21, 2005 by heavenseeker

[Snarf]

I find the perseverence of Creationist Catholics to be quite disheartening. It outlines that people who can maintain a cogent coexistence of science and religion, as Catholicism has in regards to evolution, nevertheless choose not to because they think it somehow empowers them with excess faith.

Evolution poses no threat to Catholicism. Evolution is just as much a "theory" as is quantum mechanics. We've explained it thoroughly, made predictions based on them, and have seen the predictions come to pass. Specifically, I mean the fact that genetic mutations happen on a regular basis, regular enough to merit evolution not only likely but inarguably certain.

The question I ask is, if God didn't want us to believe in evolution, then why did he create the world in such a way that it appears beyond argument that evolution is true? Why plant the dinosaur bones, why adjust isotope ratios to point to a six-billion-year old Earth? Why make nucleotide chains so unstable that mutations are inevitable? To throw in the Big Bang, why make the universe have remarkably precise agreement between cosmologically predicted and observed hydrogen/helium ratios?

Yeah, I'm sure you could nit-pick all those points to death, saying that some Bible college professor wrote an article about how a cup of Starbucks coffee was carbon-dated to the Renaissance. Oh, and please link to that Jack Chick track I love, I'd owe you the favor of making my work easier by detailing the tortuous hypocrisy of it all.

So yes, I'm a firm, active, devout Catholic. I have one contention against dogma and I've elaborated on that elsewhere, it's not here relevant. I choose to believe in evolution because I don't think God is such a jerk that He would deceive His flock in something as important as science, in such a field that could be applied to better human life.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Sep 19 2005, 07:19 PM']Evolution is an allowable opinion in the Church. Read Humani Generis.
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One of those things that won't go away. No one ever said evolution isn't an 'allowable option'. Evolutionists will continue screaming at creationists calling them idiots and so on, and creationists will continue screaming at evolutionists calling them faithless. Life goes on. It will though continue to make my job now, and even more in the future difficult and help anti-Catholics remain firmly rooted in their positions, and we will only help them do that.

[Snarf]

I just thought of a friend of mine. In high school, we teased each other about our faiths, she being a fundamentalist. She equated religion with creationism.

Come college, she worked in a biology lab. Once she got a scope of what she was actually doing, she slammed head-on into belief in evolution. So, she's an agnostic now.

Don't build faith on sand, you'll just wash away.

[philothea]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 19 2005, 08:29 PM']You are mistaking pure conjecture for observable physical science, as you yourself just admitted, no one even accepts Darwin anymore. And you can't just take a theory of origins by athiests and slap a "God Did It" sticker on it to make everything alright. Nature is beautiful, and life is amazing, but the Bible did infallibly tell us that out of the dust God created man. Just as you can't put God under a microscope, you can't explain away our creation as a theory from the pens of those who dispised and hated God.
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I haven't advocated any theory other than that of common origin, a very old earth, that different life forms lived in different eras, and that mankind is relatively modern. I'm not basing anything on "pure conjecture."

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 19 2005, 08:29 PM']"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remain of the son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."--  Richard Bozarth

No one is asking you to ignore patterns, but consider first what has been revealed by Divine Revelation. Remember, if Adam and Eve never existed because creation did not happen like that, then the entire geneology of Christ is shot, and thus either does Christ exist. And if Adam and Eve are real historical persons (which the Church tells us is a matter that we must believe, along with that there were no other humans when they existed), then it only makes sense that the rest of the story is true too.
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Ah ha. I think I understand why we have reached different conclusions. I don't [i]consider first[/i] Divine Revelation, because I don't know (initially) what Divine Revelation is. I first look at observable reality, and through that attempt to discern the truth.

I have concluded that the Catholic Church has the truth, but only after taking what I know and see and can touch, and testing how it corresponds with what the Church teaches.

I see no contradiction at between the teachings of the Church and the world around me. I don't see evidence of an absolutely literal creation myth, though. If the Church had required that, I could not be Catholic.

FWIW, science [i]has[/i] discovered that we had one common ancestor, "Eve". (Male ancestry is not yet possible to determine.) I look forward to every scientific advance as a small insight into the workings of God.

[hierochloe]

If this is going to turn into another debate on evo, maybe we should move it to the debate room?

[philothea]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 21 2005, 12:04 AM']If this is going to turn into another debate on evo, maybe we should move it to the debate room?
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Probably a good idea. I'll just nip off and report myself.

Edited September 21, 2005 by philothea

[Brother Adam]

Well...I'm not going to debate it. I don't see any point. I've debated it for years and it's always gone around in circles. I've even debated the 'science only' parts of why belief in evolution is non-sense, but it always comes down to technical jargon and people just get themselves confused. I find it tragic that you would abandon your faith over something as trivial as the theory of evolution.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 21 2005, 11:29 AM']Well...I'm not going to debate it. I don't see any point. I've debated it for years and it's always gone around in circles. I've even debated the 'science only' parts of why belief in evolution is non-sense, but it always comes down to technical jargon and people just get themselves confused. I find it tragic that you would abandon your faith over something as trivial as the theory of evolution.
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As a teenager I left the church when erroneously told I had to take the 6 day creation story literally.

[Brother Adam]

And there are people who refuse to join because evolution is pushed as hard as it is. What's your point?

[hierochloe]

It is unfortunate indeed when it would seem this issue is not one on which your salvation is contingent. If you can agree that God did it, and no other, then you've covered your bases as it were. The rest is trivial compared to the important articles of faith. Yeah, I know - that could be considered a heretical statement by some. I still think it's true.

[hierochloe]

[quote name='philothea' date='Sep 21 2005, 12:21 AM']Probably a good idea.  I'll just nip off and report myself. 
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Lol, what's that all about? Did you get chapped by one of the mods?

[philothea]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 21 2005, 11:51 AM']Lol, what's that all about? Did you get chapped by one of the mods?
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No, I just figured the thread should be moved, and it's easier to hit the report button and catch the next-available-mod than to try to guess who to PM. (Actually, I did PM Kilroy at first, but she couldn't move it.)

I certainly didn't want to report someone else, so I figured I'd report myself.

I hope it doesn't go on my permanent record. :

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 21 2005, 12:50 PM']It is unfortunate indeed when it would seem this issue is not one on which your salvation is contingent. If you can agree that God did it, and no other, then you've covered your bases as it were. The rest is trivial compared to the important articles of faith. Yeah, I know - that could be considered a heretical statement by some. I still think it's true.
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Well sortof. Not only do you have to believe "God did it" even if you believe in evolution, the Church states that you have to believe Adam and Eve are our first parents, real, historical people, and that they were the only human beings when they lived and before they had children. You also have to believe that they were living in perfect communion with God here on earth, and then fell out of communion through sin causing the doctrine of original sin.