Education System

[Aloysius]

"...it is no part of the State's duty to teach... [i]authority over the child belongs not to the State, but to the parent..[/i] Nothing could be more odious in the ears of modern nationalism--because nothing is more true. In the face of this tremendous claim of the Modern State, a claim which not even the Roman Empire made, the right to teach what it wills to every child in the community, that is, to form the whole mind of the nation on its own despotic fiat--our critics cannot maintain that hte Modern State does not pretend to be "absolute." It is in fact more absolute than any Pagan state of the past ever was. What is more, its absoluteness increases daily; that is why its conflict with Catholocism seems to be inevitable"

-Hilaire Belloc, The Catholic Church and the Modern State

Let's continue here the debate on the public education system and the Catholic parochial school system from the "was it rape" thread.

[homeschoolmom]

Okay.... Um, we're part of neither. Where does that put me?

[Era Might]

If you don't like that America makes sure its citizens know how to read, write, and do some math in between, go to Saudi Arabia.

What can I say?

America does not claim an absolute right to teach. If she did, parochial and home schools would not be allowed.

Public schools ensure that the vast majority of citizens, who don't have the money for parochial school or the knowledge to homeschool, can get an education.

Edited September 19, 2005 by Era Might

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 18 2005, 10:17 PM']If you don't like that America makes sure its citizens know how to read, write, and do some math in between, go to Saudi Arabia.
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If someone doesn't have either the need or the desire to learn, then why force it on them? If I need to know how to do something, I look it up or ask someone. I've always done that. The state should probably mandate teaching of its laws, but that's about it.

[Era Might]

[quote name='p-hawk' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:40 PM']If someone doesn't have either the need or the desire to learn, then why force it on them? [right][snapback]729170[/snapback][/right]
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Because children aren't in a position to make such a stupid decision, and parents who would make such a decision are not fulfilling their duty as parents.

The state does allow a student to drop out at the age of 16, when he is somewhat able to try and make it on his own. The state does all it can up to that point to teach them the value of an education. If they insist, they can learn it the hard way.

[Socrates]

[quote name='p-hawk' date='Sep 18 2005, 08:40 PM']If someone doesn't have either the need or the desire to learn, then why force it on them? If I need to know how to do something, I look it up or ask someone. I've always done that. The state should probably mandate teaching of its laws, but that's about it.
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Not to sound like a commie here, but I think sometimes we also have to consider the common good of society. I'm in general not a huge fan of the public education system, but I have nothing against compulsory education laws, at least up a certain level, so long as these laws do not otherwise violate parental and religious liberty rights. (Homeschooliong should be a legal option.)

I can say for a fact that if suddenly, no schooling of any kind were required for children, many of them would learn nothing beyond their playstations and tv sets!
A large number of kids tend to be naturally lazy, and many parents are lazy about parenting/teaching.
If a large percentage of kids grow up ignorant and lazy, they will tend to be a burden on the rest of society as they reach adulthood.

[homeschoolmom]

Btw, each state has different ages of manditory education. For example, in Minnesota it's 7-16. So really kindergarten is completely optional as is most of first grade.

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 18 2005, 10:52 PM']I can say for a fact that if suddenly, no schooling of any kind were required for children, many of them would learn nothing beyond their playstations and tv sets! 
A large number of kids tend to be naturally lazy, and many parents are lazy about parenting/teaching.
If a large percentage of kids grow up ignorant and lazy, they will tend to be a burden on the rest of society as they reach adulthood.
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Whatever happened to don't work, don't eat? I'm not talking about the truly depressed, debilitatingly addicted, extrememly infirm, or otherwise too ill to cope, but if there are real consequences for not getting at least some amount of education (and not eating is much more of a consequence than detention), then how will they learn? I don't think that the middle ages had too much of a burden from the uneducated, because they all worked to stay alive.

[Era Might]

[quote]I don't think that the middle ages had too much of a burden from the uneducated, because they all worked to stay alive. [/quote]

There's not much work you can do today without an education, and expect to support yourself, let alone a family.

Working at Burger King, MAYBE you can get by in a rat hole. But you'd have to basically live like a monk.

[Socrates]

[quote name='p-hawk' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:10 PM']Whatever happened to don't work, don't eat? I'm not talking about the truly depressed, debilitatingly addicted, extrememly infirm, or otherwise too ill to cope, but if there are real consequences for not getting at least some amount of education (and not eating is much more of a consequence than detention),  then how will they learn? I don't think that the middle ages had too much of a burden from the uneducated, because they all worked to stay alive.
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If we lived in a simple, primtive econmomy, where all one would be required to do was work in the fields, this might work.
In the modern world, however, most jobs require at least basic reading and math skills.
Most young children are too immature to make decisions about education and what they should learn on their own (They will learn the consequences when it is too late). And many parents, unfortunately, are unwilling or unable to educate their children (having worked for a homeschool for a couple years, I know this from experience.)

[homeschoolmom]

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 18 2005, 11:21 PM']If we lived in a simple, primtive econmomy, where all one would be required to do was work in the fields, this might work.
In the modern world, however, most jobs require at least basic reading and math skills.
Most young children are too immature to make decisions about education and what they should learn on their own (They will learn the consequences when it is too late).  And many parents, unfortunately, are unwilling or unable to educate their children (having worked for a homeschool for a couple years, I know this from experience.)
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Okay, regarding practicalities this argument is obviously right. When I was a kid I would have studied science fiction until my eyes bled. My parents could have home schooled me, I suppose, but I can imagine that not all parents would be able to do so.

What I was trying to get at through my question is that the current system is broken; if everyone could be homeschooled and was curious enough to learn on their own, that would be ideal; since we do not live in an ideal world, what practical changes could we make to bring about a more ideal state? Would, for instance, tying food to work of any sort bring about a more ideal state? Would that impel the lazy to learn reading, writing, and 'rithmetic on their own, with whatever resources they could find?

Edited September 19, 2005 by p-hawk

[p-hawk]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 18 2005, 11:13 PM']There's not much work you can do today without an education, and expect to support yourself, let alone a family.

Working at Burger King, MAYBE you can get by in a rat hole. But you'd have to basically live like a monk.
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True. Is that an acceptable state of affairs? Should we work to reform this as well as mandatory schooling?

[hierochloe]

[quote name='p-hawk' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:58 PM']True. Is that an acceptable state of affairs? Should we work to reform this as well as mandatory schooling?
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No child left behind?

[p-hawk]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 19 2005, 12:40 AM']No child left behind?
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The few teachers I know refer to it as "No Effing Child Left Behind". And they don't say effing.

But anyway, I was talking about the economy and the state of work, and the possibility of completely eliminating state-mandated schooling. No Child Left Behind throws more mandates on the table.