Will homosexuals make it to heaven?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 28 2005, 10:03 AM']They don't serve breakfast in hell.
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When the toast is burned,
And all the milk has turned
And cap'n crunch is wavin' farewell.
When the big one finds you
May this song remind you
That they don't serve breakfast, in hell

[Timothy]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Sep 28 2005, 08:31 AM'] God sees the heart.  Anyone who is not ready to stand before him and repent of the homosexual activity WILL GO TO HELL.    [right][snapback]739838[/snapback][/right]
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I agree with you. God does see the heart [i]anybody[/i] who is not ready to repent before HIm will goto hell.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Sep 28 2005, 09:30 AM']Needless to say, acrtive homosexuals need to repent to assure their grace; but we all have our issues.  If this is mortal sin or not; I think it just might be but can't tell for sure. 
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The Church definately declares homosexual activity to be mortal sin.
(This is does not mean necessarily that everybody who commits this sin goes to hell - they can repent and receive God's mercy like the rest of us who commit mortal sins.) However, it is definitely grave matter, no doubt about that.

[dspen2005]

we cannot make such judgements -- as we never know the mind and state of someone's soul prior to the moment of death.

[Aloysius]

just a semantical clarification:

I have noticed a common trend on phatmass to attempt to refer to sins for which someone is deemed culpabile for as 'mortal sins' and those that they are not culpable for as 'sins of grave matter'. This is correct ONLY when speaking subjectively about an individual case.

But speaking objectively, we may label all sins of grave matter as mortal sins. They have mortal potential and there is no individual case to judge culpability, so therefore it should be referred to as a mortal sin.

Thus, saying that homosexual activity is a mortal sin is not judging culpability, it is stating the objective fact that the sin has mortal potential to the soul.

Anyway, St. Paul in this passage was defining such mortal sins, and since he was not speaking about an individual case (that's just literary style to personalize it, he's clearly not talking personally to someone) he spoke objectively, saying these are the sins which keep people out of heaven, i.e. have mortal or deadly potential to the soul.

So, following St. Paul's lead, I say that homosexual activity can send you to hell. Don't do it, and if you do pray that the Lord not deem you culpable, and repent of it.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 28 2005, 09:27 PM']just a semantical clarification:

I have noticed a common trend on phatmass to attempt to refer to sins for which someone is deemed culpabile for as 'mortal sins' and those that they are not culpable for as 'sins of grave matter'.  This is correct ONLY when speaking subjectively about an individual case.

But speaking objectively, we may label all sins of grave matter as mortal sins.  They have mortal potential and there is no individual case to judge culpability, so therefore it should be referred to as a mortal sin.

Thus, saying that homosexual activity is a mortal sin is not judging culpability, it is stating the objective fact that the sin has mortal potential to the soul.

Anyway, St. Paul in this passage was defining such mortal sins, and since he was not speaking about an individual case (that's just literary style to personalize it, he's clearly not talking personally to someone) he spoke objectively, saying these are the sins which keep people out of heaven, i.e. have mortal or deadly potential to the soul.

So, following St. Paul's lead, I say that homosexual activity can send you to hell.  Don't do it, and if you do pray that the Lord not deem you culpable, and repent of it.
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can you repent and live an active homosexual lifestyle.........i dont believe so. If you read 1 corinthians 9:6 it starts out by saying "do not be decieved" then it goes on to list things that deem people unworthy of heaven. This does not mean they are going to hell. But i dont believe that any homosexual who dies living a homosexual lifestyle will make it into heaven. Its up to the individual to learn about what the bible says on moral issues like this. Im sure that nearly every human being (especially here in the united states) has heard that the bible says it is wrong. Its up to them to find out and want to change. I think that if they have heard that the bible says its wrong and they reject it or dont bother to actually find out that this claim is correct.......they are bringing damnation to themselves. They were presented with an option at this point.

Edited September 29, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

i think the same applies to those who have never heard about god......they also will not make it into heaven. Yet again i dont think they necassarily go to hell. Jesus Christ says that salvation is only through him.

[Aloysius]

sorry for the triple post, the internet connection here at college is terrible for forums and getting just about any information uploaded onto the internet. anyway, that's why the post is oddly split and repeted a bit in the next two posts. bear with me in my times of technical difficulties.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Aloysius

[Aloysius]

for someone to go to hell, they must either die in original sin or (culpable) mortal sin.

1) for sin to be mortal and thus culpable it must first be a sin of grave matter, the sins St. Paul is describing, the sins that have mortal potential.

2) secondly, the committer of the sin must either (a) have a conscience that is formed to know that the thing is wrong or (b) been given the oppurtunity to have their conscience formed to know it is wrong but culpably rejected that oppurtunity

3) thirdly, the committer of the sin must either (a) give full consent of his will he is in complete control of over to the sin without anything outside of his control infringing upon his ability to willfully resist the sin or (b) have culpably reduced his ability to willfully resist the sin somehow (by excessive drinking or drug use for which he is culpable, for instance)

In an individual case, only God can fully evaluate all of these conditions. Do you know if a person was given the oppurtunity to have their conscience formed but willfully rejected it? No, but God does. You have a limited and finite knowledge, God sees all and knows all. Therefore, you are not qualified to claim that everyone committing a sin of grave matter is going to hell, because God alone can know and judge the circumstances and whetehr or not those circumstances were his FAULT or not. Only God can deem someone culpable.

But Satan would fool us. Satan would have us think we can judge. Satan, the great acuser, would have us become the acuser of our brethren. We ought to more model ourselves after the Benevolant Advocate, who defends

[Aloysius]

But Satan would fool us. Satan would have us think we can judge. Satan, the great acuser, would have us become the acuser of our brethren. We ought to more model ourselves after the Benevolant Advocate, who defends us from accusations and wants us in Heaven with Him and the Father and the Son forever.

A good advocate will inform someone when they're doing something for which they could easily get convicted. A good Christian will exhibit the spiritual work of mercy of "admonishing the sinner". But that is different than accusing the sinner. A good Christian will warn someone who is committing a sin with mortal potential that that sin has the potential to kill their soul and block it off from salvitic grace rendering them in danger of eternal hellfire.

Admonish the sinner, do not accuse him.

[infinitelord1]

dont you thnk that judging means determining the fate of a person including sending them to hell or heaven? We as human beings cannot actually send them to hell or heaven.......only god can do that. We can, like you said, recognize someone living in a state of mortal sin and try to guide them along the right path though right?

[Aloysius]

we can recognize them as committing sins that have mortal potential, but we cannot say whether they are culpable for them or not. we should not tread on that ground, only someone who knows that person as in depth as God himself (even the person himself might not know himself well enough, I sure know I've often struggled with whether or not I ought to be deemed culpable for certain sins) can determine whether that sin has actually mortally wounded his soul.

but yes, we tell them that the things they are dealing in are MORTAL SINS which kill grace in the soul, and that if they do not repent of them they risk eternal hellfire.

But when you are sitting around saying they will go to hell, or they should go to hell, or all practicing homosexuals go to hell, you become as bad as the acuser (the devil) who acuses us day and night always arguing that we should be deemed culpable and never understanding it when God in His mercy does not deem us culpable.