Does God love Satan?

[Slamtinky]

God's love always shines out, no matter what. It is us that can
block it, like Satan did. Therefore, God loves him, but Satan hates God. He has shut himself off from God's love.

[son_of_angels]

I agree with some on this thread. There is no hope for reconciliation between fallen angels and God, because there is no angelic redemption inherent in the incarnation of Christ. Moreover, such a redemption would be superfluous, as angels exist, with God and the saints, in a world in which the normal effects of time aren't quite the same as for men. By creating us within time, God gave us the grace of the full experience of free will and redemption. By entering time through the Man, Jesus, he brought that redemption to its ultimate goal.

Angels, however, have already made that choice, are making that choice as we speak, and will make that choice on the final day. It would be like wondering if saints could, like the angels, fall into sin. If they cannot are they not being denied free-will. However, again, in their existence, now, outside of time, they continue to make the choice they have made and will make in the future. Angels are likewise spirit. Their original Fall to me is the greatest mystery.

Nonetheless, I think everyone should read the Catechism 391-395. It has a very rich commentary on the subject (which, together with a full application of Angelic hierarchy, doctrine, and piety, I would like to write a book on someday).

To apply this to the question at hand, "Does God love Satan?" The immediate answer is yes, because if there was not some good in Satan's existence (and God must love the good) then Satan would not exist, having neither substance nor perception. That is one way to look at it.

However, this must be qualified. Does God love us simply for the promise of redemption? In other words, does God love us only because we have the potential to serve him? I would think not. Instead, he loves us because, in part, some part of every man, woman, and child is "in imago Dei" which reflects back to him his own glory. In sending the perfect form of man, Jesus, he shows us that our flesh is a participation in the Trinity, whereby we, in substance however differentiated, reflect the love of the son.

It would not be, perhaps, that big of a leap to say that angels reflect some aspect of God. Certainly it is not his "image" for that pertains to the Sonship of God, but perhaps his incorporeal "Spirit." God loves through his Spirit, and loves his Spirit, for it is the Personality of his Love. In this way, just as man may not always live in accordance with that "image" of God, the fallen angels do not live in the "spirit" of God. But that does not change the reflection of God within them.

However, God loves the Son in terms of relationship. He languishes in his love for Him, he places his Spirit in His care. This characterizes the redeeming, personal love of God towards man.

But to the Spirit his love is not redemption, but sending. To this extent, that which is broken, that which does not well communicate, that which obscures, these are all things which God cannot forgive, because the instrument of love is itself faulty. He cannot forgive it, because the nature of his love is different towards the Spirit as opposed to the Son. It is not defect, it is a glimpse into the ineffable mystery of the trinity.

[Nicole8223]

God is love. His very existence insists that He loves every creature. he does not love sin, but Satan is not the same as sin. He is a creature turned bad, but God still loves him.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Ok, so God loves Satan? Oh man?

What will he say to those who come to Him and say Lord, Lord did we not work great deeds in your name, and what does He do, He turns His head to those people and says, begone from me I never knew you!

That is just us human sinners now Aloysius made a good point that Satan's sinful act was different because he was angelic. So if God says to human sinners I never knew you to those who rejected His true ways, your going to sit there and say He loves Satan? WOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

God is Love, does Love, love sin? Does God love evil?
Satan is a different situation! We humans are fallen, Angels are perfect so there choices are different!

And Socrates I know what true love is, look at the Cross. Love Hurts, True Love Hurts!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Jason' date='Oct 6 2005, 07:43 PM']Ok, so God loves Satan? Oh man?

What will he say to those who come to Him and say Lord, Lord did we not work great deeds in your name, and what does He do, He turns His head to those people and says, begone from me I never knew you!

That is just us human sinners now Aloysius made a good point that Satan's sinful act was different because he was angelic. So if God says to human sinners I never knew you to those who rejected His true ways, your going to sit there and say He loves Satan? WOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

God is Love, does Love, love sin? Does God love evil?
Satan is a different situation! We humans are fallen, Angels are perfect so there choices are different!

And Socrates I know what true love is, look at the Cross. Love Hurts, True Love Hurts!
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I think there are a number of false philosophical/theological presuppositions that you are making that might be leading you astray - evil is not some [i]thing[/i] that exists, rather it is a lack of the good.

Now, God is the source of all Good and the source of all Being, and Being is itself a Good. Moreover, God is Love. From this, it follows that if God did not love some thing, it would cease to be. But Satan exists. Therefore God must love him. This can be shown in a second way as well: Satan is a Being - he is a [i]thing[/i] - and being considered in itself is a Good. But all Good comes from God, who is Love, and therefore Satan, who is a being, must be Loved by God. In the same way, God Loves all human sinners, [i]even the damned[/i].

Now, just because God Loves all things does not mean that all things are [i]in communion with[/i] God. Satan most certainly is not, neither are all the fallen angels, nor men and women in a state of mortal/original sin. These are the ones who, despite God's Love for them, have turned their backs on God, and whom He will not force back into communion.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jason' date='Oct 6 2005, 07:43 PM']Ok, so God loves Satan? Oh man?

What will he say to those who come to Him and say Lord, Lord did we not work great deeds in your name, and what does He do, He turns His head to those people and says, begone from me I never knew you!

That is just us human sinners now Aloysius made a good point that Satan's sinful act was different because he was angelic. So if God says to human sinners I never knew you to those who rejected His true ways, your going to sit there and say He loves Satan? WOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

God is Love, does Love, love sin? Does God love evil?
Satan is a different situation! We humans are fallen, Angels are perfect so there choices are different!

And Socrates I know what true love is, look at the Cross. Love Hurts, True Love Hurts!
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[/quote]

God loves human sinners, too! Really, you need to study some basic theology. God's love does not exclude His justice.

Again, you confuse love with "warm, friendly feelings." We can not understand God and His love which keeps all His creation in existence in terms of merely human emotions.

Edited October 7, 2005 by Socrates

[MissScripture]

[quote name='T-Bone' date='Oct 2 2005, 05:44 PM']I didn't know Socrates said that...those heathen Greek philosophers are more sophisticated than I thought.
Oh....you ment the [i]Socrates on Phatmass[/i].....
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I thought that, too, when I saw that!

[Livin_the_MASS]

Can anyone give me a theological link to this to do a study on this?

Pax
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

God can use evil for good, right?

So if Satan did not exist, than there would be no rebellion, there would be no sin, and we wouldn't have Jesus Christ as our Savior and His Catholic Church.

Now I understand that Satan exist's for a reason, and we all exist for a reason, but saint's have said if we would see Satan we would die. He isn't a beautiful angel anymore in his true self now he can appear to be. Because of his angelic power.

Now I totally agree God is love, if He does not love something it would cease to exist.

I understand God loves sinners, to the end.

But everyone has a chance unto death to repeant, have confession, and recieve Christ in Holy Communion. This excludes odd situations, like sudden death and such, only God can determine the out come of those. I am speaking of a person knowing he is dieing in a state of mind for confession, and to recieve Holy Communion.

My confusion is this, in Scripture it say's "depart from me I never knew you."

Now at that statement you cease to exist in the Heavenly Kingdom of God. Right?

I just need a good theo study on this!

[Guest omnipresentbob]

What would be the theological reprucussions of evil(ie, Satan) existing from the beginning of time?

As far as "I never knew you" goes... We believe that God knows all things (omniscient), and is everywhere (omnipresent). Therefore, if God knows all things, and is everywhere, how could He not know someone? This doesn't mean the Bible is contradicting itself. Rather, one must examine what Jesus means by, "I never knew you." Because my roommate is trying to sleep, but I'll try to make sense with a few words. Basically, Jesus is referring not to actually knowledge or intimacy with someone (for, He has both with all), rather, He is referring to a two-way relationship with someone.
Hope that helps.

Faith, Hope, Love,
Andrew

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Jason' date='Oct 8 2005, 09:16 PM']God can use evil for good, right?

So if Satan did not exist, than there would be no rebellion, there would be no sin, and we wouldn't have Jesus Christ as our Savior and His Catholic Church.

Now I understand that Satan exist's for a reason, and we all exist for a reason, but saint's have said if we would see Satan we would die. He isn't a beautiful angel anymore in his true self now he can appear to be. Because of his angelic power.

Now I totally agree God is love, if He does not love something it would cease to exist.

I understand God loves sinners, to the end.

But everyone has a chance unto death to repeant, have confession, and recieve Christ in Holy Communion. This excludes odd situations, like sudden death and such, only God can determine the out come of those. I am speaking of a person knowing he is dieing in a state of mind for confession, and to recieve Holy Communion.

My confusion is this, in Scripture it say's "depart from me I never knew you."

Now at that statement you cease to exist in the Heavenly Kingdom of God. Right?

I just need a good theo study on this!
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As omni hinted at, what Christ means by "I never knew you" is not that God never had knowledge of the sinner, but rather, that God and the sinner are not in communion, which is what is meant by "knowing" someone in an intimate way.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='omnipresentbob' date='Oct 9 2005, 03:36 AM']What would be the theological reprucussions of evil(ie, Satan) existing from the beginning of time?
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First, it is important to note that Satan is not synonymous with Evil. Satan is a good being by virtue of being a creation of God, who left communion with the Holy One through an act of free will. Satan is called the Prince of Lies and the master of sin because his was the first sin.

Now lets look at those theological repercussions:

God either did or did not make the Devil

Lets first assume that God [i]did[/i] make the devil. If the Devil was always evil, it would follow that God made an evil creature, and from this it would follow that God is not Supreme Goodness and, from this, it would follow that God is not God.

Now let us assume that God did [i]not[/i] make the devil. It would follow from this that the Devil was either made by something other than God, or that the Devil is eternal. If the Devil is eternal, then it would follow that God is not Supreme Being, because something else would exist from itself, rather than from God. But this would mean that God is not God.

Only two options remain. The first is that the Devil was created by something other than God, and that this other thing has its existence from God. The second is that God created the Devil. Because there is nothing that necessitates that the Devil was always evil, we can eliminate the first option by virtue of Occham's Razor - there is no need to posit a third party creator of the Devil.

Yours in Christ,

Jeff

[Theoketos]

Sacra Crux sit mihi lux, non draco sit mihi dux.

[crusader1234]

If God created everything, and Satan is something, and God loves all creation, then God loves Satan.

If God created everything, and Satan is something EVIL, and God loves all creation, then God doesn't love satan because he's EVIL.

Which one of these statements makes sense to you?

[Cow of Shame]

Hey, I just came for the dessert tray & the free booze. Don't ask me.

[Benedict]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 12 2005, 02:31 PM']Sacra Crux sit mihi lux, non draco sit mihi dux.
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Vade retro Satana! Nunquam suade mihi vana! Sunt mala quae libas. Ipse venena bibas!

[termitescoming4u!]

yea, that's true. God loves the true Satan [then Angel Lucifer] He created, and not the thing Satan turned himself into [devil and evil]. He'll still love Satan if he can REPENT of his sins and come bac to God. But since he cannot go back to God [because once you've fallen as angel, you have fallen FOREVER], and therefore, have rejected all that has to do with God and good, he's deprived of God's love and mercy, and therefore cannot be made holy again, and an angel of God. And God doesn't go back on his word [Satan's been condemned forever by God], so he remains Satan and in Hell, forever.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Oct 17 2005, 07:26 AM']If God created everything, and Satan is something, and God loves all creation, then God loves Satan.

If God created everything, and Satan is something EVIL, and God loves all creation, then God doesn't love satan because he's EVIL.

Which one of these statements makes sense to you?
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The second assertion fails because there is no such thing as "something evil." Rather, evil is a lack of the Good. This means that there is not some positively existing evil that God must love.

What we are referring to when we say "x is evil" is that some positively existing thing, which is good when considered in itself (because God made it) is lacking a particular Good (also good in itself).

Thus, it doesn't make sense to say that Satan is [i]something[/i] evil, because anything that is something is from God, and anything from God is Good. Thus, positively existing things are Good.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[beatty07]

Can I underscore a point that's already been introduced?

The mere existence of Satan proves that God loves, at the very least, Satan's existence. Remember, Satan is not some threatening force warring against Heaven that God has to muster all His heavenly hosts to defeat in one awesome final battle. Satan is a creature and if God ever wants him gone He won't have to go beat him up or whatever, He need only stop holding him in existence! Satan may be a threat to us, but next to God he's a pathetic little yippy poodle.

So why doesn't God stop creating this annoying creature? Because his existence remains good, despite the complete evil that Satan uses it for. If God continues to hold him in existence, surely it is because his existence glorifies God and will yet play a part in God's plan?

[qfnol31]

It's not like Satan could actually stand to be in Heaven anyways. I dunno, but that could almost be worse than Hell to be before God for all eternity in such a state.