Opus Dei head argues against giant masses

[cappie]

Opus Dei head criticises holding of giant masses
Thu Oct 6, 2005 4:30 PM

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The head of the conservative Catholic group Opus Dei on Thursday criticised the holding of giant masses where many thousands of people worship together and receive communion.

Such large-scale open-air masses were one of the hallmarks of the papacy of John Paul, who died in April, and his successor Pope Benedict has already held several.

In an address to a synod of bishops meeting at the Vatican, Bishop Javier Echevarria Rodriguez said such large-scale celebrations could sometimes be a detriment to the "sacred nature" of the mass.

According to an excerpt of his speech given out to reporters and a briefing by a spokesman, Echevarria said the Church should "re-think whether Eucharistic celebrations (masses) with an excessive number of concelebrants is opportune".

Concelebrants are priests who say the mass along with the main celebrant, usually the Pope.

Echevarria said that when there were so many priests saying it at the same time "it does not make the dignified carrying out of the mass possible".

Popes have concelebrated mass with dozens, sometimes hundreds of priests at huge outdoor masses attended by hundreds of thousands of people on fields and in other large locations.

One such mass was held by Pope Benedict last August when hundreds of thousands of young people turned out for the final event at World Youth Day celebrations in his native Germany.

Echevarria told the synod, which advises the Pope on Church matters and is meeting until October 23, that there were sometimes so many priests at a concelebrated mass that they could not even see each other.

Echevarria, who is the "prelate", or head, of Opus Dei, also suggested the synod should discuss whether it was proper for the communion host to be distributed during masses for large numbers of people.

He said such large-scale distribution of communion, which Catholics believe is the body and blood of Christ, is sometimes "a detriment to the dignity of worship".

He added: "The importance of maintaining a sense of the sacred in Eucharistic liturgies will render the Church a great amount of good."

Ironically, in another address to the synod, Cardinal Camillo Ruini of Rome said one of his fondest memories was a mass during the 2000 World Youth Day celebrations in Rome.

That mass was presided over by Pope John Paul and attended by more than a million young people on the grounds of a university on the city's outskirts.

In another development at the synod on Thursday, the Vatican decided to partially lift a clampdown on information given to reporters about the discussions among bishops.

Priests who are briefing journalists said on Wednesday that would only disclose the theme of what a bishop said during the daily open discussion part of the gathering but no details.

On Thursday, reporters were told that the policy had changed yet again. They would now be given details of what was said in open discussion but not told who make the remarks.

More than 250 bishops are attending. They will draft final recommendations to the Pope on policy at the end of their three-week meeting.

[curtins]

whats the opus dei
?

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

He is quite right about the sacred-ness being absent...
I saw it all over WYD... people eating lunh during Mass, people making out, people doing all sorts of things they shouldn't have... Its nice, but it really takes away from the meaning of the Mass (Which of course is Jesus, not community...)

[megrc]

But at the sametime, it does give you a feeling of belonging to something huge. I know that the closing mass at WYD 2002 was awsome. It made me feel so special to be there and to be able to celebrate mass with the Holy Father. I do agree that it does sometimes seems like a picnic with all the people eating and talking. That part did kinda get on my nerves , but I still enjoyed my time with the Holy Father.

[Frankencow]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Oct 6 2005, 08:06 PM']He is quite right about the sacred-ness being absent...
I saw it all over WYD...  people eating lunh during Mass, people making out, people doing all sorts of things they shouldn't have...  Its nice, but it really takes away from the meaning of the Mass (Which of course is Jesus, not community...)
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If I were Pope....

HIRE MORE USHERS TO KEEP THINGS ORDERLY!

[Maria]

I second megrc.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
10/6 - St. Bruno

My experience of Vatican Liturgies was always positive; very beautiful and reverent. Getting into and out of the Vatican, though, was like participating in the [i]hajj[/i]; people nearly got trampled all the time. :

[journeyman]

I wouldn't think it necessary that the concelebrants see each other - the question is whether or not the faithful can see one of them - while the concept of the sacral presider seems to be out of vogue in some circles, I think it would be particularly critical in the larger Masses.

[Aloysius]

I see good points on both sides and ultimately lean more towards this opus dei guy's assessment... it will be interesting to see if the Synod does anything about all of this...

[cpp]

[quote name='curtins' date='Oct 6 2005, 10:31 PM']whats the opus dei
?
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[url="http://www.opusdei.org"]Opus Dei[/url] is a personal prelature of the Church, founded by St. Josemaría Escrivá . Today (Oct, 6th) is the anniversary of his canonization; last Sunday (Oct. 2nd) was the anniversary of the foundation of the Work. They put emphasis in "finding God in work and daily life". They're absolutely faithful to the Church and the Holy Father; no surprise, then, that they have lots of vocations everywhere.

[Cam42]

[quote name='megrc' date='Oct 6 2005, 09:13 PM']But at the sametime, it does give you a feeling of belonging to something huge.  I know that the closing mass at WYD 2002 was awsome.  It made me feel so special to be there and to be able to celebrate mass with the Holy Father.  I do agree that it does sometimes seems like a picnic with all the people eating and talking.  That part did kinda get on my nerves , but I still enjoyed my time with the Holy Father.
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Megrc,

Are you a priest? The reason being that you spoke about celebrating Mass with the Holy Father.

As for me, I have actually held a role in a Papal Mass. Midnight Mass in 1997, I was a member of the prinicipal choir for the Mass.

It was a once in a lifetime experience. However, it was exactly as Bishop Echevarria described. Other examples are WYD Masses, but they are anomolies, and not the norm for papal Masses.

However, I concur with what the good bishop had to say. There is often times a loss of the sense of the sacred. What do I mean? When people were at Mass at WYD, was everyone reverrent? Was everyone actively participating (participatio actuosa) in the Mass? Or were there those who were there, in a concert-type mode?

If one person is not actively participating (participatio actuosa) in the Mass, then a sense of the sacred has been lost, no matter how slight.

Not to long ago there was a Mass in the US for the consecration of a bishop (there was a thread about it on the phorum) which was held in a convention center rather than the Cathedral. The main complaint was that there was a lack of sacredness. That is what Bishop Echevarria is getting at.

Insturare Sacra. Restoration of the Sacred. Is the size of the closing Mass at WYD necessary or is simply having the Mass necessary? That is the real question.

I think that we can look to Archbishop Marini, the papal emcee, moreso than the Popes for these gigantic Masses. Benedict has already stated that he would like to have more Masses inside St. Peter's and fewer outside.

Perhaps the next papal emcee will respect that opinion. Perhaps not. We will see, but I agree with Bishop Echevarria. There sometimes can be a detriment to the "sacred nature" of the Mass.

[Cam42]

[quote name='curtins' date='Oct 6 2005, 08:31 PM']whats the opus dei
?
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Here is my [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=39239"]apologia[/url] for [url="http://opusdei.org/"]Opus Dei.[/url]

Incidentally, I am a supernumerary of the Work. I know of what I speak.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 6 2005, 07:58 PM']Megrc,

Are you a priest?  The reason being that you spoke about celebrating Mass with the Holy Father.

As for me, I have actually held a role in a Papal Mass.  Midnight Mass in 1997, I was a member of the prinicipal choir for the Mass.

It was a once in a lifetime experience.  However, it was exactly as Bishop Echevarria described.  Other examples are WYD Masses, but they are anomolies, and not the norm for papal Masses.

However, I concur with what the good bishop had to say.  There is often times a loss of the sense of the sacred.  What do I mean?  When people were at Mass at WYD, was everyone reverrent?  Was everyone actively participating (participatio actuosa) in the Mass?  Or were there those who were there, in a concert-type mode?

If one person is not actively participating (participatio actuosa) in the Mass, then a sense of the sacred has been lost, no matter how slight.

Not to long ago there was a Mass in the US for the consecration of a bishop (there was a thread about it on the phorum) which was held in a convention center rather than the Cathedral.  The main complaint was that there was a lack of sacredness.  That is what Bishop Echevarria is getting at.

Insturare Sacra.  Restoration of the Sacred.  Is the size of the closing Mass at WYD necessary or is simply having the Mass necessary?  That is the real question.

I think that we can look to Archbishop Marini, the papal emcee, moreso than the Popes for these gigantic Masses.  Benedict has already stated that he would like to have more Masses inside St. Peter's and fewer outside.

Perhaps the next papal emcee will respect that opinion.  Perhaps not.  We will see, but I agree with Bishop Echevarria.  There sometimes can be a detriment to the "sacred nature" of the Mass.
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You are awesome. But I am sure you already know that...
Yeah, I did not find much reverance at any of the WYD Masses, but I was trying so hard not to let that bother me...
The best Mass at all was the one at the Cathedral at 6 in the morning.
I do hope that things will be done as God wills it.

[Cam42]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Oct 6 2005, 10:33 PM']You are awesome.  But I am sure you already know that...
Yeah, I did not find much reverance at any of the WYD Masses, but I was trying so hard not to let that bother me...
The best Mass at all was the one at the Cathedral at 6 in the morning.
I do hope that things will be done as God wills it.
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Thanks for the compliment. I don't think of myself as awesome, just faithful.

[cappie]

I would like to know just how many people constitute a congregation and how many a crowd and if we need to put a limit on the numbers. Say Christmas we get say 1200 to a Mass
would it be in the mind of some to limit it to say 500 and turn the others away ? I was just wondering just the practicalities.

[Sinner]

I see both sides of this....... I have only been to one Mass that was large (the one mentioned above with the new Bishop) and it was difficult to follow with the large crowd. And in the arena...... my mind kept venturing to what a priest would look like in a high slam dunk! Yet, to see so many worship our Lord is awesome......... but reverence definitely wanes.

[Cam42]

[quote name='cappie' date='Oct 6 2005, 11:22 PM']I would like to know just how many people constitute a congregation and how many a crowd and if we need to put a limit on the numbers. Say Christmas we get say 1200 to a Mass
would it be in the mind of some to limit it to say 500 and turn the others away ? I was just wondering just the practicalities.
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[/quote]

Considering that at most papal Masses, one must have a ticket, I suppose the Church has been doing that kind of thing for years.....

Also, I would say, if the Church is full, then another Mass should be added. Is there a specific reason that there has to be only one gigantic Mass? Why can't there be several Masses for those who cannot attend the papal Mass?

I mean seriously, if your logic holds, then why have more than one church in Rome? Why not simply have St. Peter's and close the others. Then why not have only one church per town, in every town and only one Mass per day at said church, across this great planet of ours......the answer: It isn't prudent to do so. The mass of people attending the Masses would be uncontrollable. So, why is that acceptable when the Pope celebrates Mass?

The Mass is the Mass. You know that. You also know that a pontifical Mass is a pontifical Mass, regardless if it is celebrated by an auxiliary bishop, a cardinal or the Pope. They are bishops and the graces received are the same.

The only added attraction is seeing the Pope. While it is an honor, it is not always practical, agreed?

So, what constitutes too many? I can't and I won't say, but I will offer this: it may be too many and another Mass should be added when it is impractical for the prinicipal celebrant to effectively minister to all present.

[cappie]

I'm not critising the statement just asking. I am the only priest in my parish my church holds 800 people but sometimes e.g. Christmas Midnight Mass has more than 800 people do you suggest I say a few extra Masses say at 11pm and 1am or issue tickets to the midnight Mass. I already have a Mass at 6.30pm,9pm, Midnight, 7&9am and 10.30am. Far be it from me to question one so exalted a bishop, I am just thinking aloud how you would bring to fruition such a policy at a local level.

[Maria]

Angela, you made it to mass at the Dom at 6:00? Where were you staying and at what time did you get up?

[Cam42]

[quote name='cappie' date='Oct 7 2005, 12:00 AM']I'm not critising the statement just asking. I am the only priest in my parish my church holds 800 people but sometimes e.g. Christmas Midnight Mass has more than 800 people do you suggest I say a few extra Masses say at 11pm and 1am or issue tickets to the midnight Mass. I already have a Mass at 6.30pm,9pm, Midnight, 7&9am and 10.30am. Far be it from me to question one so exalted a bishop, I am just thinking aloud how you would bring to fruition such a policy at a local level.
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If that is aimed at me, I wasn't on the attack, I was simply speaking practically.

If you are asking my advice (I don't presume you do), I would say this:

Implore the parishoners to be prudent in their choice of Mass. While the mystique of Midnight Mass is admirable and it is certainly holy, so is Mass at Dawn, Mass of Christmas Day, or the anticipated Masses. Also, if the popularity of your Masses are as such, then tickets would not be out of the question. I wouldn't charge for them, but I would make them available until they are gone.....it is a thought.....and it is not an unheard of action.

Another thought would be to bring in another priest to celebrate extra Masses. While I know that may be difficult, it is not impossible. I lived in a rectory for several years and there were always "visiting firemen" for the major holidays. So, perhaps adding Masses are not out of the question. If you don't have contacts like that, perhaps contacting a monestary or a religious community is not out of the question.

Simple thoughts.....