Baptised TWICE?

[Benedicite]

Hey guys... needin' a bit of advice....
Friend of mine left the church earlier this year to join a protty one (non denominational I think..) down the road. I've been havin' a hard time accepting this move aye, but i know all i can do is pray for her.....

Got an email from her the other day asking if I'd be interested in going to her baptism.... But I'm like you've already been baptised in the Catholic Church, you can't get baptised again can you? I thought we were only supposed to have one baptism?

What shall I do? Feelin' kindda helpless, cause if I talk to her, what diff. would it make? She's already made up her mind....
But if I go would I not be encouraging her?

[Frankencow]

[quote name='Benedicite' date='Oct 9 2005, 04:15 AM']Hey guys... needin' a bit of advice....
Friend of mine left the church earlier this year to join a protty one (non denominational I think..) down the road. I've been havin' a hard time accepting this move aye, but i know all i  can do is pray for her.....

Got an email from her the other day asking if I'd be interested in going to her baptism.... But I'm like  you've already been baptised in the Catholic Church, you can't get baptised again can you? I thought we were only supposed to have one baptism?

What shall I do? Feelin' kindda helpless, cause if I talk to her, what diff. would it make? She's already made up her mind....
But if I go would I not be encouraging her?
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I had this same problem. I tried explaining to my friend that we all share one common baptism. You aren't baptised into one church or another, but with Christ. Baptism is a one time thing. Its canonical even. (Although I suppose that doesn't matter to them at this point) I told her very politely that it was not only unnecessary, but basically a slap in the face to God as it rejects her original baptism. Its not just some harmless add-on baptism or anything. I then refused to attend because I could not support such an action. In Baptism we dedicate ourselves to die and rise with Christ. There is no need for this again. Remind her about the washing of the feet of the Apostles. One of them asks why Jesus does not wash them totally. Spriritually speaking we don't need another total purge because our original sin is gone... period! We just need an occasional touch up via confession.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Benedicite' date='Oct 9 2005, 05:15 AM']Hey guys... needin' a bit of advice....
Friend of mine left the church earlier this year to join a protty one (non denominational I think..) down the road. I've been havin' a hard time accepting this move aye, but i know all i  can do is pray for her.....

Got an email from her the other day asking if I'd be interested in going to her baptism.... But I'm like  you've already been baptised in the Catholic Church, you can't get baptised again can you? I thought we were only supposed to have one baptism?

What shall I do? Feelin' kindda helpless, cause if I talk to her, what diff. would it make? She's already made up her mind....
But if I go would I not be encouraging her?
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This baptism means nothing since she already is a child of God by her first baptism. I certainly wouldn't go to a fake baptism.

[Brother Adam]

I was rebaptized myself and have since recanted and rejected my rebaptism.

Your friend has bought the lie that baptism is only a symbolic event, and she is only giving witness to being "saved" by "accepting the Lord Jesus as her personal savior" and believes in 'faith alone'. She is totally oblivious to what baptism is, what a sacrament is, what a covenant is, or even what salvation history is. If you are going to be able to help her out of this heretical sect, you're going to need to start from the beginning. Telling her that the first baptism was good won't do anything because she believes it was a false baptism.

[Old_Joe]

It's like what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:10-18

10
I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
11
For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe's people, that there are rivalries among you.
12
I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to 5 Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Kephas," or "I belong to Christ."
13
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14
I give thanks (to God) that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15
so that no one can say you were baptized in my name.
16
(I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
17
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.
18
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Also, this reminds me of what a firend of mine said about the seventh-day adventists, "They call us the Beast, but we still accept their baptism."

Edited October 9, 2005 by Old_Joe

[son_of_angels]

There is a decent bit of Scripture and the writings of various, Protestant and Catholic, theologians against the notion of rebaptism. Perhaps this is a chance for you to bring her back to the Faith by showing her the Church is truly Christian, and is not the one in error.

[Brother Adam]

Key verses:

John 3:5,22
Titus 3:5
Acts 2:37-38
Acts 22:16
1 Corinthians 6:11
Romans 6:4
1 Peter 3:21
Hebrews 10:22

[photosynthesis]

*sigh* this is a frustrating situation. I have a friend too who is baptist, and her family moved around a lot when she was a kid. so every new church they went to, they got baptized to make their "public proclamation of faith." That's how a lost of baptist, pentacostal and "non-denominational" evangelicals see Baptism. oh, and don't even get me started on "non-denominational" Christians. there is no such thing is non-denominational, especially with 32,000 denominations... each non-denominational church is just adding to that number because they are in and of themselves a new denomination.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Another key verse: Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"

A second baptism is unnecessary. Attendence at such an event would attempt to recognize efficacy in a case where there is none.

[Benedicite]

Thanks guys, so that settles one question - I'm not going.

Second question....so we've made the assumption that she's clueless about what baptism is, and everything. But to give her the benefit of the doubt (and to buy myself more time to write an explanation) I've asked her "when, where and WHY are you getting baptised again?"

Brother Adam - you suggested starting from scratch, which I'm expecting will probably be necessary. I don't know all that much myself.... can you please help?

[Brother Adam]

I've learned myself that trying to twist anyones arm behind there back just pushes them further away (it did for me when ironmonk tried that here). I would start with "The Story" of our faith as St. Augustine instructs us to share it with those we are evangelizing. Actually, even before that, I would focus on knowing as you talk to this person that you know what you believe is true, you are happy to share it, and you are firm in your convictions.

Then for the story, if they are willing to talk, ask them if they would be willing to go through the Bible with you, and how you understand it. Here is the order to talk about the events of the Bible:

1. Who is God? (happy and complete, describe His family, Trinitarian life)
2. His creation of angelic beings, some chose to rebel.
3. His creation of us out of love, to participate in His life.
4. Our temptation (Satan our enemy) and sin (and loss)
5. God's promise and plan for our salvation
6. His gradual revelation of Himself and gathering of a people
7. Promise and prophecies (as much of salvation history as you have time or need for)
8. Mary's 'Fiat'
9. The Incarnation (be sure to give it proper emphesis, this is the cruicial mystery of the Deposit of Faith)
10. The Church
- - The Family of God on earth
- - Dispenser of the Mystery (Eph 3:9-10
- - The Kingdom of God
- - The Body of Christ on earth (an incarnational distinctive)
11. The history of God's people and His constant care, saints in constant supply
12. Today, you and I in "The Story", living the Christian life
- - If you have time show the precursors to sacramental living in the Old Testament
13. The sure promise and hope:
- - Jesus will come again
- - Judgment
- - The heavenly Jeresalem
- - Eternal Life

Show how everything in the story is centered Jesus Christ, and the hope we have because of the Paschal Mystery.

Next I will go into a special topic on baptism.

[Brother Adam]

Next, we don't want to leave your friend hanging on the whole baptism issue. We want to be able to give her a solid and profound scripture based reply, one that she isn't used to hearing, so one that will have a true impact and she won't just come back and use her typical Baptist replies. Learn this well, very well, even memorize some of the verses. Then have her get a Bible and be ready to move through this fast, telling her to open her Bible to the different parts. Don't go to fast, but fast enough that it inspires awe.

1. Romans 6:26 - Start with something very familiar that they are used to hearing as justification for Fundamentalist belief. If you can show that Catholics can use it, and in context, it will do much good.

So all have sinned and all are under the condemnation of death because the wages of sin is death. Why?

2 Quick, turn to Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Read it. Now, look at verse 1. Here we see the law of jurisprudence in play. After all the forms of Mosaic law, all the Old Testament concessions, and all of the old covenants the people have gone through, we reach an end to the Mosaic law.

3. Look at Deuteronomy 27:1-26 and 28:15-68. Don't read it though. Have her notice all of the curses of the final form of the Mosaic law.

4. Look back at Deuteronomy 30:1 again. Notice that the the people of Israel WILL fail. It is the "Planned Obsolesence", planned failure. Anyone from this point foreward who tries to follow Mosaic law WILL fail. If they try to save themselves by the works of the law, they will incure the 54 curses of the final form of Mosaic Law. It cannot save them, but only condemn them.

5. Deuteronomy 30:4-5 - Talk about how this passage is provisionallly fulfilled when, after a short time of blessing in Solomon, the people are exiled and the nation of Israel is scattered starting with the first division of Israel and the exile into Babylon.

6. Deuteronomy 30:6 - KEY VERSE. Read it again and again and again to yourself before talking to your friend. Know it inside and out, backwards and forwards. Because the people are under the final form of the law, and all it can bring is condemnation it is God who is going to save His people from their Sin. Quick, look at Deut 10:16. God again talks about the circumcision of our hearts and not only of our flesh. It is God who will gather his people together and do this. Okay, ready, keep this verse in mind and:

7. Turn to Acts 2:37 and read it. This is after Peter's first sermon. What does it say - THEY WERE CUT TO THE HEART. Deuteronomy 30:6 has been fulfilled through our Lord Jesus. Who listened to Peter - all of the tribes of Israel that had been scattered about! God had regathered them, another part of Deuteronomy fulfilled. And what are the people to do now that they have been cut to the heart?

8. Acts 2:38 - REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED! Why?

9. Remember those 54 curses of the law? Go look at them again. Before we are born again, we are under the curse of the law because we have sinned. This is the final form of the Mosaic law, if we try to save ourselves this is it. BUT

10. Jesus says (John 3:5) that we must be born of water and the Spirit and (John 3:22) then they went and baptized! Because it is in baptism that we die with Christ in those curses of the law that he bore (Titus 3:5), so we can be raised again to those blessings (Deut 28:1-14) in newness of life. (read Romans 6:4).

11. To nail the point home read 1 Peter 3:21

In order to be saved, we can only cooperate with the grace of God. We can do nothing on our own. We cannot even approach God in faith without first receiving His grace. But in order to become adopted members of the family of God, something must be done (that God must to) in order to bring us into his family. The Bible says over and over again it is by our baptism that we enter into the New Covenant and are born again. Belief itself leads to obedience, and obedience, to the sacraments where Jesus has paid the price and calls us to the free gift of eternal life.

Hope this helps

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I find rebaptism so wrong I haven't bathed in years.

[scardella]

Bro. Adam, I just want to say that you rock!

[stargirl3:16]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Oct 10 2005, 10:23 AM']I find rebaptism so wrong I haven't bathed in years.
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[Brother Adam]

[quote name='scardella' date='Oct 10 2005, 11:43 AM']Bro. Adam, I just want to say that you rock!
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glad it was helpful. I'm no cam or hot stuff, but i've got a few tricks up my sleave.

[RC_]

I pray that she'll see the truth.

[Brother Adam]

[Benedicite]

Bump!

(will keep bumping till this weekend... stressing over a huge assignment right now, but had a quick skim through - Brother Adam you're awesome :) Ta!!)

edit: just got this reply to my um... time buying question hehe~ I guess it's confirmed our suspicions?
"alrighty, well the baptism is on the 23rd of october at 6.30 which is our youth service time. and i'm getting baptised again because when i was baptised in the catholic church it wasnt my decision and this time i feel it is, and i want to make that public commitment."

Edited October 11, 2005 by Benedicite

[Brother Adam]

Yep, like I said, they don't have the slightest clue what baptism is, nor what salvation history is, nor what a sacrament is. I'd start working on them fast, like today. Chances are they will be rebaptized and won't listen to you because of the emotional high they are getting from the idea. I got rebaptized because I wanted to be part of their group, I thought the baptists were more fun than my current church (Lutheran), and because it was exciting.

The theological teaching on baptism in the Bible is absolutely never once equated with a public witness. That is what corporal works of mercy and preaching are for.