Vatican Document Stops Short of Gay Ban

[Fidei Defensor]

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1193977&page=1"]http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireSt...=1193977&page=1[/url]

VATICAN CITY Oct 7, 2005 — A Vatican document expected to be made public soon stops short of a sweeping ban on homosexuals entering the priesthood, allowing those who have lived chastely for three years to be candidates for the clergy, a senior Vatican official said Friday.

The document, in the works for at least three years, updates Vatican policy, which had held that gays or men with homosexual tendencies should not be ordained, regardless of whether they can remain celibate.

The new document permits candidates who have lived a chaste life for at least three years before their admission to a seminary, said the senior official, who requested anonymity because the document has not yet been released.

The official confirmed a report in leading Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera on Friday listing the reasons for not admitting gay candidates, which include men who publicly show their homosexuality and those who reveal an attraction to what the document described as the gay lifestyle.

The report, by the newspaper's chief Vatican correspondent, Luigi Accattoli, cited sources speaking to him about the document from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education.

The Italian weekly Panorama said in its Friday editions that Pope Benedict XVI approved the document during the summer.

In a similar report Friday, the National Catholic Reporter said seminary officials will be asked to exercise "prudential judgment."

One Vatican official said the document would be published very soon, but he refused to discuss the contents.

The senior official told The Associated Press, "Anyone who knows Catholic teaching should not be surprised by what the document says."

A key document from 1961, an "Instruction on the Careful Selection and Training of Candidates for the States of Perfection and Sacred Orders," made clear that homosexuals should be barred from the priesthood.

Vatican teaching holds that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered." The church, however, says homosexuals should be treated with compassion and dignity.

The senior official said there was a lot of "ambiguity" about the term "homosexual" and therefore much depends on the individual in question, making it difficult to come up with an "absolute, sweeping policy."

The issue has long been a subject of debate at the Vatican. It received renewed attention after the U.S. church sex-abuse scandal that erupted in 2002.

A study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, commissioned by U.S. bishops after the scandal broke, found that most abuse victims since 1950 were adolescent boys. Experts on sex offenders said homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to molest young people, but that did not stifle questions about homosexual seminarians.

In the United States, where the gay priests issue is hotly contested, reactions were couched in speculative terms because there have been so many conflicting rumors about the document.

But a homosexual priest, speaking on condition of anonymity because he feared reprisal from church leaders, said if the reports are true "it will be the first time that the church will have formally said that gay men have been and can be accepted by seminaries."

Dean Hoge, a Catholic University of America sociologist who studies the priesthood, saw "good news" for seminary rectors because, as reported, the document "is not too far from present policy" and "an outright ban is not possible. There is no way of enforcing it."

Philip Lawler, editor of the Catholic World News Web site who opposes allowing seminarians with homosexual tendencies "whether or not they're active," said he has been told Rome's new policy will be more restrictive.

"What the document says ends up as much less important than how the document is followed up and enforced," he said.

The Rev. Donald Cozzens of John Carroll University in Cleveland said that regardless of what the forthcoming decree provides, "until the issue of mandatory celibacy for diocesan priests is addressed, there will be difficulty in this area."

[MC Just]

[Era Might]

Like I said in the other thread, let's wait until the document comes out before we give too much credibility to any reports.

As important to the policy itself are the reasons given.

Edited October 9, 2005 by Era Might

[photosynthesis]

i hate it when the secular media talks about "updating" the teachings of the church. the truth never needs any "updates"

[Nathan]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 9 2005, 10:38 AM']Like I said in the other thread, let's wait until the document comes out before we give too much credibility to any reports.

As important to the policy itself are the reasons given.
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True. Whatever the final ruling is, I trust Papa's judgement.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

if that is true

then its not infallibile

homosexuals have never been allowed to be priests

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:48 PM']if that is true

then its not infallibile

homosexuals have never been allowed to be priests
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Well Sam, that is qantifiably untrue. I know several men who are good celibate priests who are afflicted with homosexuality.

It is possible that a homosexual can overcome said affliction. Self-mastery is not impossible.

I think that this is one of the reasons that the Vatican has "stopped short."

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

well it really depends on how ones views homosexuality. and by what defenetion you give it. by homosexual i mean someone who is afflicted with homosexual thoughts. i do not believe in any so called "orientation". so if a man has in the past been afflicted with homosexual thoughts but is no longer i see no problem.

Dominus Vobiscum,

sam

[Nathan]

Heterosexual priests are just as affected with heterosexual thoughts as homosexual priests are with homosexual thoughts. Sexual thoughts are something that [i]all[/i] priests deal with.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

its still disordered. i don't want a disordered priest.

btw i like how you emphasised words with italics

it really jumped out at me and it almost made me change my mind.

Edited October 9, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[son_of_angels]

I am going to have to agree with Cam on this one, while it is possible that homosexual attraction are a sign that one does not have a present vocation to the priesthood, it also doesn't intrinsically prevent someone from being properly ordained, like, say gender or being only a priest would.

As such, we can only believe that the penance and requirements imposed on those who have such disorders are pretty much in the hands of the competent authorities.

I think the Vatican is going to speak decisively and well on this matter, such as will lead to the betterment and salvation of ourselves, the Church, and many others.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:13 PM']I am going to have to agree with Cam on this one, while it is possible that homosexual attraction are a sign that one does not have a present vocation to the priesthood, it also doesn't intrinsically prevent someone from being properly ordained, like, say gender or being only a priest would.

As such, we can only believe that the penance and requirements imposed on those who have such disorders are pretty much in the hands of the competent authorities. 

I think the Vatican is going to speak decisively and well on this matter, such as will lead to the betterment and salvation of ourselves, the Church, and many others.
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you know who didn't speak decisively on such matters?

JP2

i don't know if Benedict will be any better

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:57 PM']well it really depends on how ones views homosexuality. and by what defenetion you give it. by homosexual i mean someone who is afflicted with homosexual thoughts. i do not believe in any so called "orientation". so if a man has in the past been afflicted with homosexual thoughts but is no longer i see no problem.

Dominus Vobiscum,

sam
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The Catechetical view, Sam.

[quote name='CCC 2357']Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.[/quote]

It really doesn't matter, the view that is given by the Church is the most prudent view of the day. It is also how the Church will define it's own position.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 9 2005, 02:10 PM']its still disordered. i don't want a disordered priest.

btw i like how you emphasised words with italics

it really jumped out at me and it almost made me change my mind.
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Sam, people can overcome their afflictions. It is part of human growth. It is also part of the way that one come to a greater love of God.

As it has been stated, priests don't cease to be human and priests are most certainly not at the end of their own journey at ordination. They are not perfect persons. However, they too can and should strive for self-mastery.

To put them so high on a pedestal as to think that they can do no wrong or should be incapable of doing no wrong is not fair to any human person, let alone a preist.

To exclude a person because they are sinful would disqualify EVERY SINGLE priest, bishop and pope. That would include the first pope and first bishops. At least most of the men we are talking about never deny Christ. The first pope did that......

Was he unworthy of your standards too?

[Nathan]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:10 PM']btw i like how you emphasised words with italics

it really jumped out at me and it almost made me change my mind.
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You're a funny guy.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 9 2005, 03:10 PM']its still disordered. i don't want a disordered priest.
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honey, we're all a little disordered. That doesn't make disorder OK, but we all suffer from concupiscence and the temptation to sin. We all (hopefully) know that homosexuality goes against God's plan, and thus is disordered. However, the temptation to fornicate, to masturbate, to rape, is also disordered. We are all called to conform our thoughts and wills to the Mind of the Church and this is possible through the grace of God.

I really respect people with battle scars. People who have fought against their sins and won. Sometimes the battle never ends, but God gives us the grace to stay away from sin in the sacrament of confession. If we bar men who have had sinful pasts from the priesthood, then St. Augustine never would have been able to become a priest, much less a bishop. We all have times where we can say, "Too late have I loved thee."

obviously I trust and obey whatever the Holy Father says about this issue. obviously homosexuality is a special issue in regards to priesthood because of its (debatable?) correlation with pedophilia. but at the same time, it is not too unlike other forms of lust.

[Nathan]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 9 2005, 02:44 PM']If we bar men who have had sinful pasts from the priesthood, then St. Augustine never would have been able to become a priest, much less a bishop.  We all have times where we can say, "Too late have I loved thee."

obviously I trust and obey whatever the Holy Father says about this issue.  obviously homosexuality is a special issue in regards to priesthood because of its (debatable?) correlation with pedophilia.  but at the same time, it is not too unlike other forms of lust.
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Well said.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Nathan' date='Oct 9 2005, 04:48 PM']Well said.
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thank you

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 9 2005, 12:52 PM']Well Sam,  that is qantifiably untrue.  I know several men who are good celibate priests who are afflicted with homosexuality.

It is possible that a homosexual can overcome said affliction.  Self-mastery is not impossible.

I think that this is one of the reasons that the Vatican has "stopped short."
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My thoughts exactly.

[Snarf]

My first impression was that almost all members of the board were fundamentally against gays in the priesthood. I found that deplorable, and am now glad to see that people are more open-minded.

It would be totally asinine to ban gays to the priesthood. Imagine what would go through a gay man's head:

God wants me to have sex with a woman to whom I'm married, or no sex at all.
I'm not sexually attracted to women.
Therefore, I must remain chaste.
If I'm to be chaste, I may as well be a priest and serve the community.
Ooops, can't become a priest because of the way my genes are ordered.