Vatican Document Stops Short of Gay Ban

[Era Might]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Oct 9 2005, 07:47 PM']My first impression was that almost all members of the board were fundamentally against gays in the priesthood.  I found that deplorable, and am now glad to see that people are more open-minded.

It would be totally asinine to ban gays to the priesthood.  Imagine what would go through a gay man's head:

God wants me to have sex with a woman to whom I'm married, or no sex at all.
I'm not sexually attracted to women.
Therefore, I must remain chaste.
If I'm to be chaste, I may as well be a priest and serve the community.
Ooops, can't become a priest because of the way my genes are ordered.
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It would not be asinine, and in fact, was previously the discipline of the Church, as we see in the Roman Congregation's document of 1961.

The Church is free to do as she pleases. She is equally within her rights today as she was in 1961. She wasn't asinine then, and she isn't asinine today.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Oct 9 2005, 08:47 PM']It would be totally asinine to ban gays to the priesthood.  Imagine what would go through a gay man's head:

God wants me to have sex with a woman to whom I'm married, or no sex at all.
I'm not sexually attracted to women.
Therefore, I must remain chaste.
If I'm to be chaste, I may as well be a priest and serve the community.
Ooops, can't become a priest because of the way my genes are ordered.
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if the reason a man wants to be come a priest is "may as well," then he probably doesn't have a priestly vocation. A vocation to the priesthood or religious life is a GIFT from God, not something you "may as well" do.

2nd of all, I know there are other threads dedicated to this subject, but the causes of homosexuality are currently unknown. Science has yet to prove that homosexuality is caused by the way a person's genes are ordered.

[Dreamweaver]

Who's to govern if a candidate's "three years of chastity" are over? Does it refer to physical relations or any kind of offense against sexuality?

Of course, I'm waiting until the official document comes out. I'm not too trusting of "anonymous secret officials". Who's saying its actually real? It could be a fabrication of the media.

[Snarf]

But what if God ordained someone to have homosexual inclinations in order to have them lead a chaste life leading to the priesthood? I've heard of people abandoning engagements to join the priesthood, and I've heard of priests abandoning holy orders to become engaged. It just seems so simple to avoid the temptation thereof altogether by not being attracted to the opposite sex.

Since I know that a couple others are from the Lafayette Diocese, I'm sure some of you know of a particular diocesan vicar (I believe that's his title) whom you cannot regard for more than a few moments without suspecting he is naturally homosexual. Does that make him a bad priest? Only if he acts upon his inclinations, which I highly doubt he does. I respect him and would hate to see him defrocked because of what he would do if he weren't bound to celibacy.

A ban against active homosexuals makes all the sense in the world, as would a ban against prolific fornicators. I have a friend who is so allergic to wheat that he cannot even touch the Host without becoming ill. Ironically, he is probably the most devout person I know that is not in holy orders. Is that any more of an inclination that he can't be Catholic than homosexuality is that one cannot be a priest?

I think everyone goes through a phase wherein they question their sexuality. I decided long ago that if I were gay I would join the priesthood, but that no longer applies because I wouldn't be accepted on grounds of my "heresies". Furthermore, it turns out I'm not even bisexual, let alone gay.

[thessalonian]

I honestly am not all for a complete ban and hope that this three year thing is true. It seems to me that we should have confidence that the sacrament of confession and the Eucharist are powerful enough to help a man who might have a calling overcome what is standing in his way toward being a true servant of God. If the end result is for a complete ban that is fine with me and I won't argue against it but men should be able to overcome their sins and be priests. Heterosexual sins I am sure are more difficult to overcome, though at least they can get married instead of becoming a priest.

[Nathan]

You know, in any case -- aside from the priesthood thing -- I would like to see the Church reach out a little more to people who are afflicted with homosexuality. They're really kind of alone. If I were a homosexual man in the Church right now, despite the fact that I would follow the teachings and live chastly, I feel there's a good chance I'd be feeling that the Church really doesn't want much to do with me (which is what probably leads a lot of homosexuals away from the Church altogether, and into homosexual lifestyles).

We need to get vocal and really reach out to these people, tell them they're not alone, and that by being a homosexual person, God has truly given them a unique cross to bear.

[azaelia]

Putting a homosexual man in a seminary is like putting a heterosexual man in a convent. There's just too much temptation.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='azaelia' date='Oct 10 2005, 08:16 AM']Putting a homosexual man in a seminary is like putting a heterosexual man in a convent. There's just too much temptation.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
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On the one hand that arguement is true and does have some merritt. But what are they going to do, go to another college and live in the girls dorm because they have these tendancies? I doudt it. These days the seminarians are encouraged to date. My nephew was dating a very pretty young woman. He eventually broke it off because he still feels the desire to be a priest, though last I had heard he has not re-entered seminary. But the point is that there are plenty of temptations out there fore heterosexuals as well. I think they need to have adequate opportunity to show that by the power of the sacraments of confession and the Eucharist, that they have overcome these sins. A man can't hardly walk down the street without temptation staring him in the face these days. The sacraments are our power and I don't think we should deny their power in any fashion. Perhaps these young men need to live off-campus in those three years. I don't know. I am just not completely in favor of saying these men cannot be healed of this and be good priests.

[son_of_angels]

One could always imagine, if a seminarian freely admitted being afflicted terribly with homosexual thoughts, him being allowed to be made a "simplex" priest, where he could only say Mass, not preach or hear confessions. Once he had achieved victory over this problem and done a fairly large penance, and it is possible, he could be put into a normative priestly function.

[Era Might]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 10 2005, 10:01 AM']One could always imagine, if a seminarian freely admitted being afflicted terribly with homosexual thoughts, him being allowed to be made a "simplex" priest, where he could only say Mass, not preach or hear confessions.  Once he had achieved victory over this problem and done a fairly large penance, and it is possible, he could be put into a normative priestly function.
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That's quite degrading, IMO. They would all be classified as a "homosexual corps" of Priests. Someone new comes to the parish, and asks why Father So-and-So doesn't do more, and they're informed he's the homosexual priest. It's inevitable that they'd be defined by their disorder.

Beyond that, the Priesthood is not a place to overcome your disorders. It takes 8 years to become a Priest. All men, even heterosexual men, should evidence self-mastery before they even enter Seminary.

IF the Holy See permits the limited ordination of men afflicted with a homosexual disorder (and it remains an IF), it is vital that they be men who have mastered themselves, and can truly function as a Priest of God, and all that entails.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Era Might

[Paladin D]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 10 2005, 08:44 AM']I honestly am not all for a complete ban and hope that this three year thing is true.  It seems to me that we should have confidence that the sacrament of confession and the Eucharist are powerful enough to help a man who might have a calling overcome what is standing in his way toward being a true servant of God.  If the end result is for a complete ban that is fine with me and I won't argue against it but men should be able to overcome their sins and be priests.  Heterosexual sins I am sure are more difficult to overcome, though at least they can get married instead of becoming a priest.
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Agreed.

[Jaime]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 10 2005, 07:44 AM']I honestly am not all for a complete ban and hope that this three year thing is true.  It seems to me that we should have confidence that the sacrament of confession and the Eucharist are powerful enough to help a man who might have a calling overcome what is standing in his way toward being a true servant of God.  If the end result is for a complete ban that is fine with me and I won't argue against it but men should be able to overcome their sins and be priests.  Heterosexual sins I am sure are more difficult to overcome, though at least they can get married instead of becoming a priest.
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I agree with Thess as well. The true issue is celibacy not orientation. I've known several priests that were attracted to the same sex and honored their vows. They made much better priests than I could ever be.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 10 2005, 11:01 AM']One could always imagine, if a seminarian freely admitted being afflicted terribly with homosexual thoughts, him being allowed to be made a "simplex" priest, where he could only say Mass, not preach or hear confessions.  Once he had achieved victory over this problem and done a fairly large penance, and it is possible, he could be put into a normative priestly function.
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Why would the Church ordain someone that wasn't fully able to function as a priest in the first place? I mean, you're either a priest or you're not. Everyone struggles with sin. If priests who struggle with sin were grouped into a class of "simplex priests" then we'd have no confession and no homily because they'd all be riding the short bus to Mass. that idea seems really degrading to me.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 10 2005, 09:04 AM']That's quite degrading, IMO. They would all be classified as a "homosexual corps" of Priests. Someone new comes to the parish, and asks why Father So-and-So doesn't do more, and they're informed he's the homosexual priest. It's inevitable that they'd be defined by their disorder.

Beyond that, the Priesthood is not a place to overcome your disorders. It takes 8 years to become a Priest. All men, even heterosexual men, should evidence self-mastery before they even enter Seminary.

IF the Holy See permits the limited ordination of men afflicted with a homosexual disorder (and it remains an IF), it is vital that they be men who have mastered themselves, and can truly function as a Priest of God, and all that entails.
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Exactly. The issue is not, and never was, wanting men who are actively against the Church's teaching, or cannot control themselves, to become priests.

I simply think that we should do justice to those men who have overcome their struggle in such a way that they can make good and holy priests.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Oct 9 2005, 06:47 PM']My first impression was that almost all members of the board were fundamentally against gays in the priesthood.  I found that deplorable, and am now glad to see that people are more open-minded.

It would be totally asinine to ban gays to the priesthood.  Imagine what would go through a gay man's head:

God wants me to have sex with a woman to whom I'm married, or no sex at all.
I'm not sexually attracted to women.
Therefore, I must remain chaste.
If I'm to be chaste, I may as well be a priest and serve the community.
Ooops, can't become a priest because of the way my genes are ordered.
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[/quote]

I am still completely against homosexuals in the priesthood. The prevelence of homosexuality in many seminaries is shameful, and should be ended. (I've given my arguments in many a thread on this topic.)

We need strong, manly priests to lead God's Church. The priesthood should absolutely NOT be a "gay profession" or be seen as a "refuge" for the limp-wristed.

And this "way my genes are ordered" nonsense is BS. As I've pointed out many a time in the debate table, there exists no scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetically predetermined.

And the issue is not just of "temptation." It is with the fact that homosexual attraction is intrinsically disordered, while "heterosexual" attraction is not.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Oct 10 2005, 06:06 AM']I think everyone goes through a phase wherein they question their sexuality.  I decided long ago that if I were gay I would join the priesthood, but that no longer applies because I wouldn't be accepted on grounds of my "heresies".  Furthermore, it turns out I'm not even bisexual, let alone gay.
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I think this attitude is one of the problems at the heart of the homosexual priest problem.
The priesthood should never be a life someone chooses [b]because[/b]
one is homosexual. A man should choose the priesthood because it is holy, not for sexually-related reasons. He should accept a vow of celibacy as a holy sacrifice for his dedication to God, not because he is not attracted to women.

This is related to the lack of true holiness in our current generation.
Sex is placed ahead of holiness.

The attitude is basically, "The priesthood is ok, but sex is better. But if I can't have sex beacuse I'm gay, then I'lI go to the seminary."

The attitude should be, "The priesthood is such a holy and noble calling that I'm willing to sacrifice everything, even sex and family, for it!"

I don't want this to be taken as a personal attack on Snarf, but to speak about the current attitude of society in general. I think this is a huge problem, and part of the reason for the current scarcity of manly priests.

[MC Just]

Open-Minded

Open-Mindedness only led to the clergy sex scandals and dissention. I ain letting my brains fall out. lol I feel bad for a gay priest if i bump into him. I cant even believe one would justify such a disgusting thing, especially in the Holy Priesthood.

Edited October 11, 2005 by MC Just

[MC Just]

"It"s not completely evil", lets have it in the church and let it grow like a cancer. How liberal.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 10 2005, 09:22 PM']And the issue is not just of "temptation."  It is with the fact that homosexual attraction is intrinsically disordered, while "heterosexual" attraction is not.
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No one's saying that homosexuality should be a "gay profession" or a "refuge for the limp-wristed." I don't think anyone here wants that..

Of course homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. However, not all forms of heterosexual attraction are pure. There's a difference between looking at a woman and thinking, "Wow! Now that is a BEAUTIFUL woman" and committing adultery in one's heart.

Matthew 5:27-29:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna."

Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, heterosexuality is not. But it still has the potential to be disordered when people look at members of the opposite sex with lust. Consider the booming porn industry, "Sex and the City," Planned Parenthood, the "sex education" children are recieving in schools (mine actually came straight from PP and the alan guttmacher institute) and marital infidelity. Disordered sexuality isn't just a for homosexuals.

P.S. referring to those who struggle with SSA as "the limp-wristed" is derogatory.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 10 2005, 09:40 PM']I feel bad for a gay priest if i bump into him.
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Even if he's faithfully lived out his vow of celibacy?

that's not very Christian.