Did you know?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

Greetings, and peace be with you!

Did you know that Jesus paid the price, the wages of sin (Romans 3:23), that is death, so you don't have to? My Catholic friends, we cannot be saved by our own works, but only by the grace of God. Our only response can be faith in Him who is the Lord!

The advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all. However, it is for the purpose of judging and separating the believing from the unbelieving. [i]Irenaeus[/i]

JPTP

[Didacus]

What about Jesus saying that he who follows Him should take up his cross in doing so?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 11 2005, 09:13 AM']Greetings, and peace be with you!

Did you know that Jesus paid the price, the wages of sin (Romans 3:23), that is death, so you don't have to? My Catholic friends, we cannot be saved by our own works, but only by the grace of God. Our only response can be faith in Him who is the Lord!

The advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all. However, it is for the purpose of judging and separating the believing from the unbelieving. [i]Irenaeus[/i]

JPTP
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[/quote]

Ah, fresh meat. Glad you stopped by.



You are correct that we don't "get saved" by good works. No Catholic will disagree with you. But I am curious as to how one gets to heaven without bearing fruit? Will not the branch that does not bear fruit be cut off and cast in to the fire.

Are these passages not true?


[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.


Matt 25
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
[37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Do you deny the power of God working in us, producing thirty, sixty, or one hundred fold AV and Heidi say has no power. Very sad. .

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

For my money I think you raise a false dichotomy between grace and works. I think that the fruit is God working in us and through us. I'm betting that that grace in us and through us has power. Faith working out in love is what saves. Not a dead faith without works as James clearly indicates is non-salvivfic. Still you are correct in a sense. That sense is that it is not OUR WORKS but God working in and through us that saves. It's kind of like when I give my kid 5 bucks to go to the football game. He has to pay the five bucks but I provide it. God gives us the grace to do the good works that we will be judged for. Once again one must be "saved" i.e. in a state of grace for these works to be of any value.

Blessings

Edited October 11, 2005 by thessalonian

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 11 2005, 11:38 AM']What about Jesus saying that he who follows Him should take up his cross in doing so?
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Didacus,

I agree with you. Jesus paid the price for our sins, and after our free response of faith, only by the grace of God alone, we are all called to follow the Lord Jesus and make His burdens our own.

[quote]Ah, fresh meat.
[/quote]
thessalonian,

Ah, but I am old meat. I'm afraid I wouldn't be very tasty.

I would surely agree that our works are of importance, especially in our santification, but if we try to work our way into heaven, all is at a lost cause. If I go to God at my judgment and say "Here are my works, reward me with salvation" apart from my faith in Christ, they are nothing.

I believe it is important to understand the moments in our conversion and walk with God. We are initially brought to new life at a moment in time when we are born again, and we are called to walk in faith with God. If we refuse to do so, if we do not have any fruits, but if our fruits are of rejection to God, then we cannot be saved because our faith was a false faith in the first place.

Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christians - even though they profess with the lips the teachings of Christ. [i]Justin Martyr[/i]

JPTP

[thessalonian]

[quote]I would surely agree that our works are of importance, especially in our santification, but if we try to work our way into heaven, all is at a lost cause. If I go to God at my judgment and say "Here are my works, reward me with salvation" apart from my faith in Christ, they are nothing[/quote]

Well then you agree 100% with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works alone. Now that we have that settled do you have another question.

Edited October 11, 2005 by thessalonian

[Jaime]

But we all agree



Jesus is a pretty cool guy!!

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 11 2005, 11:13 AM']Did you know that Jesus paid the price, the wages of sin (Romans 3:23), that is death, so you don't have to?
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[/quote]
yup!
[quote]My Catholic friends, we cannot be saved by our own works, but only by the grace of God. Our only response can be faith in Him who is the Lord!
[/quote]
You seem to be under the impression that Catholics think that you can be saved through works, even if there is no faith. This is incorrect. Catholics believe "that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). Faith is necessary for salvation, however it must be a faith that bears GOOD fruit. Our time here on earth should be spent living out our faith through good works and acts of mercy.

Welcome to Phatmass!

- edited to provide a Biblical citation. also, when quoting Church Fathers (and anyone else!) please put quotation marks around the quote, or type [code][quote]insert quotation and citation here[/quote][/code].

Edited October 11, 2005 by photosynthesis

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='"Thess"']Well then you agree 100% with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works alone. Now that we have that settled do you have another question.
[/quote]

[quote name='"photo"']You seem to be under the impression that Catholics think that you can be saved through works, even if there is no faith. This is incorrect. Catholics believe "that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). Faith is necessary for salvation, however it must be a faith that bears GOOD fruit. Our time here on earth should be spent living out our faith through good works and acts of mercy.
[/quote]


this pretty much destroyed that misconception.


NEXT!

[jasJis]

How come they never stay long when they are corrected about their mis-perceptions? We didn't even get to talk about Abundant Grace and Participating in Grace. So impatient and weak...

[photosynthesis]

JPTP just got here today. let's hope we don't scare him/her away!

[ofpheritup]

: (In a sing song sort of voice)

I love being Catholic, I love being Catholic. I love, I love, I love, I love,
I love being Catholic.
Ok, song over.

Catholics have wonderful things to express their faith.
Things like the Bible, the rosary, holy water, the sacraments.

The only thing we ain't got is BRAKES.

You know the BRAKES that occur around John Chapter 6.
The squealing and screeching can be heard for miles and the spiritual pile up is ridiculous as people try to jump from chapter 5 to 7.

Who loves ya baby?
JESUS, enough to give us Himself to eat. Edited October 11, 2005 by ofpheritup

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 11 2005, 06:52 PM']yup!

You seem to be under the impression that Catholics think that you can be saved through works, even if there is no faith.  This is incorrect.  Catholics believe "that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24).  Faith is necessary for salvation, however it must be a faith that bears GOOD fruit.  Our time here on earth should be spent living out our faith through good works and acts of mercy.

Welcome to Phatmass!

- edited to provide a Biblical citation.  also, when quoting Church Fathers (and anyone else!) please put quotation marks around the quote, or type [code][quote]insert quotation and citation here[/quote][/code].
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Faith that bears good fruit is a faith that is given freely and fostered by God. We are only capable of cooperating with the grace of God. I would contend to say that salvific grace cannot even be granted by good works, but only by the work of God. It would seem then, that this is even true in your sacraments, that they are not the works of men, but of God. I would have to conclude, then, even in Catholicism, by the teaching of the ecclesial leaders, the grace offered in a 'sacramental' nature, is different than favor that may be won by any works we do after becoming believers.

Jasjis my good friend, I hope you don't consider me weak and impatient. I hope to engage in discussion over time, but my work does keep me quite busy and so I can't be on all the time.

That said, or will I be able to respond to all of you all the time. Good 'posts' though!

JPTP

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 11 2005, 08:59 PM']Faith that bears good fruit is a faith that is given freely and fostered by God. We are only capable of cooperating with the grace of God. I would contend to say that salvific grace cannot even be granted by good works, but only by the work of God. It would seem then, that this is even true in your sacraments, that they are not the works of men, but of God. I would have to conclude, then, even in Catholicism, by the teaching of the ecclesial leaders, the grace offered in a 'sacramental' nature, is different than favor that may be won by any works we do after becoming believers.
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It's obvious that without God's grace we can do nothing. The Church teaches that faith itself is a gift from God, a product of grace. Grace happens first, then faith, then the good works. This is a given.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 11 2005, 08:47 PM']It's obvious that without God's grace we can do nothing.  The Church teaches that faith itself is a gift from God, a product of grace.  Grace happens first, then faith, then the good works.  This is a given.
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If you are going to catechize someone, especially someone you are not familiar with, I'd stray away from using the words "It's obvious" and "this is a given". You don't know who you are talking to so it very well may not be obvious, and nothing is a given. Precatechumenal evangelization begins with the assumption that the words 'grace' and 'faith' are totally foreign and that a person doesn't know who God is.

[edited: I'm not singling you out for this comment by any means] I just worry the posts so far are not pastorally oriented and in some cases seem to lack appropriate Christian charity.

Edited October 12, 2005 by Brother Adam

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 11 2005, 10:13 AM']Greetings, and peace be with you!

Did you know that Jesus paid the price, the wages of sin (Romans 3:23), that is death, so you don't have to? My Catholic friends, we cannot be saved by our own works, but only by the grace of God. Our only response can be faith in Him who is the Lord!

The advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all. However, it is for the purpose of judging and separating the believing from the unbelieving. [i]Irenaeus[/i]

JPTP
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[/quote]
Why didn't anyone ever tell me this?


seriously though, faith without works is dead, and vice versa. Catholics have known this for years.

How do you reconcile James 2:14-17 with this idea that Catholics believe works alone get you into Heaven? You will find that there is a Scriptural basis for Catholic beliefs which many Protestants fail to recognize. Or, recognizing it they simply choose to believe that the Catholic interpretation is defunct in favor of their own...precisely why Scripture and its interpretation was entrusted to the Church, not Johnny Layman.


oh yeah, try James 2:18-26. Make sure you have a good translation.