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[photosynthesis]

When someone is already a Christian I tend to assume that they know what grace and faith are, unless they use the words incorrectly in a sentence which would give the impression that they don't know what the words mean. I don't like talking to other Christians as if they don't know who God is, because most often they do.

I said that faith and works are both necessary for salvation, assuming that faith can only happen through the grace of God. Usually I assume that Christians, especially those that believe in sola gratia, understand that too.

I am aware that RCIA programs start from the beginning and answer the question "Who is God?" and they go over the Catholic understanding of who God is, grace, faith, works, etc. But I'm not an RCIA program, I'm a human being who responds to stimuli.

Edited October 12, 2005 by photosynthesis

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 11 2005, 10:24 PM']When someone is already a Christian I tend to assume that they know what grace and faith are, unless they use the words incorrectly in a sentence which would give the impression that they don't know what the words mean.  I don't like talking to other Christians as if they don't know who God is, because most often they do.

I said that faith and works are both necessary for salvation, assuming that faith can only happen through the grace of God.  Usually I assume that Christians, especially those that believe in sola gratia, understand that too.

I am aware that RCIA programs start from the beginning and answer the question "Who is God?" and they go over the Catholic understanding of who God is, grace, faith, works, etc.  But I'm not an RCIA program, I'm a human being who responds to stimuli.
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[/quote]

But that's exactly the deal with Protestantism. You can't assume anything. And more often than not, people in RCIA are life long Christians or people who have religious knowledge. However, there is still nothing wrong starting at the beginning. It ensures there are no misunderstandings as the discussion progresses. So far our discussion has been directed towards basic concepts as faith and grace.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 11 2005, 11:35 PM']But that's exactly the deal with Protestantism. You can't assume anything.
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[/quote]
yeah, I know that's what the deal is... but I like assuming things because I'm Catholic.

as my college's motto goes, "Prove all things, hold fast to what is good." (1 Thess 5:21). As far as that goes, my college doesn't do a very good job of living up to its motto, in that it is so secular and liberal that they prove all things, but then don't hold fast to what is good. But I do!

Edited October 12, 2005 by photosynthesis

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

As long as you don't believe that the good works you do will contribute to the justification of your initial salvation, we aren't too far off.

Edited October 12, 2005 by Jesuspaidtheprice

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 12 2005, 09:12 AM']As long as you don't believe that the good works you do will contribute to the justification of  your initial salvation, we aren't too far off.
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[/quote]
the position is, you need both faith and works to be saved. Without one, you do not have the other. A good tree bears good fruit. If it doesn't bear fruit, then it's dead. Jesus had a run in with a tree that didn't produce fruit and it displeased Him.

So. If you do good works but you are an atheist, they don't help you.
If you believe in God but do not do good works, your faith does not save you.

Do you have an answer for James yet?

[jasJis]

The clearest example is the Master giving the Talents to 3 servants. The Talents are Grace. Those who did something with them saw Grace grow. The one who did nothing with his Gift, lost the gift and was further punished (did nothing with the Grace and lost salvation).

Hmmm. Got any comments, Jesuspaidtheprice?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

Can you give me a clear understanding of the difference between 1 - belief or faith, 2 - the sacraments, or the work of God that effects salvation and 3 - good works?

If the work of God in your sacraments truly brings about salvation in the soul, why is there a need for good works also to be used in order to be saved? Would a believer not truly be called to the fruits of the grace he has been given?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 12 2005, 10:24 AM']Can you give me a clear understanding of the difference between 1 - belief or faith, 2 - the sacraments, or the work of God that effects salvation and 3 - good works?

If the work of God in your sacraments truly brings about salvation in the soul, why is there a need for good works also to be used in order to be saved? Would a believer not truly be called to the fruits of the grace he has been given?
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[/quote]

Good works are a response to grace. The Eucharist is the food for the soul and the works are the excercise. Without one or the other the soul will die, just as the body needs nutrition and excercise. Noah recieved much grace that gave him the will to build a boat. If he had said "yes, Lord I believe and put his easy chair out on the beach waiting for the Lord to save him from the flood he would have drowned with the rest of them. Faith calls for action. Faith without works is dead and grace is not irresistable. Look in the story of the wedding feast. How many invitations did the Master send out that were rejected. And when people did accept the invitations one man refused to put on the garmet that was GIVEN to him. We must act on the invitation. We must submit ourselves to his will. It's not a slam dunk.

God bless

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 12 2005, 10:24 AM']Can you give me a clear understanding of the difference between 1 - belief or faith, 2 - the sacraments, or the work of God that effects salvation and 3 - good works?

If the work of God in your sacraments truly brings about salvation in the soul, why is there a need for good works also to be used in order to be saved? Would a believer not truly be called to the fruits of the grace he has been given?
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[/quote]

There is a difference between [i]getting[/i] saved and [i]staying[/i] saved.

Jesus also said that one must hold out to the end to be saved and something about no one who cries out "Lord, Lord" but only those who [i]do[/i] the work of the Father. Also, Paul in Philippians 2 talked about working out one's salvation with fear and trembling (depending on which translation you use). Paul also talks in Romans (I think it is chapter 10 or 11) about remaining in God's kindness otherwise we will also be cut off. There are also parts of the New Testament - Revelations and I believe Ephesians - where there are sins listed that can keep us out of heaven, and it does not say that Christians are exempt from this.

Salvation is not a one-shot deal; it is an ongoing, continuing process. That is one of the key differences between Catholics and some (though not all) non-Catholics.

I hope that clears up any misunderstandings.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 12 2005, 10:24 AM']Can you give me a clear understanding of the difference between 1 - belief or faith, 2 - the sacraments, or the work of God that effects salvation and 3 - good works?

If the work of God in your sacraments truly brings about salvation in the soul, why is there a need for good works also to be used in order to be saved? Would a believer not truly be called to the fruits of the grace he has been given?
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[/quote]Faith is a gift of Grace.
Sacraments are a physical sign that God gives us Grace.
Good works are possible through Grace.

It's about Grace and participating with it. Faith is the free gift of Grace, and is like a seed. As it sprouts, it has to be cared for to keep the weeds at bay. That's what further Grace is about.

I guess you believe in Once Saved Always Saved (which isn't in the Bible).

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Oct 12 2005, 11:45 AM']There is a difference between [i]getting[/i] saved and [i]staying[/i] saved.

Salvation is not a one-shot deal; it is an ongoing, continuing process.  That is one of the key differences between Catholics and some (though not all) non-Catholics.

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[/quote]

To ME this is or should be "common sense."

[tojo]

[quote name='ofpheritup' date='Oct 13 2005, 12:59 AM']To ME this is or should be "common sense."
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[/quote]

It's not to many, many Protestants though (I know, I've been there). One of the "lightbulbs" that went off in my head was when I realized what Catholics call being "saved" is what (my kind of) Protestants call being "sanctified." Also that justification and sanctification have little if any distinction in Catholicism.