Eucharistic Prayer in Silence?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 09:50 PM']There is nothing wrong with praying the Roasary during Mass.  Pray the Mass if you are able.  If not, other devotions are perfectly acceptable, as Pope Pius XII himself acknowledged in Mediator Dei.
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even JPII says something (either in Redemptoris Mater or Rosarium Virginis Mariae) about how the Rosary doesn't take away from the Liturgy, but draws one more deeply into it...

I'll see if I can find it

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 17 2005, 04:39 PM']absolutely. I am old enough to remember the continual clank of rosaries and whispered Hail Marys, and other people dozing off til the bells rang.
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Furthermore, I am old and young enough to remember the continual clank of people leaving their pew to go to the bathroom or simply to leave church, whispered complaints of boredom or incredulity, and people dozing off until the recessional, all within the Novus Ordo. What's your point?

I think I'd rather have the clank of rosaries and wispered Ave's

Edited October 18, 2005 by popestpiusx

[Brother Adam]

The whole point of Mediator Dei and Sacrosanctum Concilium was to show that often people were not participating in the mass, and that the faithful should be active participants in their role as the lay faithful. Those who do not participate in the mass to not receive the graces from the mass. The faithful must be disposed to receiving the graces. If you pray a rosary during mass you have received the graces of praying a rosary, not of participating in the mass. (SC)

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 09:59 PM']Furthermore, I am old and young enough to remember the continual clank of people leaving their pew to go to the bathroom or simply to leave church, whispered complaints of boredom or incredulity, and people dozing off until the recessional, all within the Novus Ordo.  What's your point?

I think I'd rather have the clank of rosaries and wispered Ave's
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I'd rather go through the birthing pains of liturgical reform and renewal called for by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to reach the place where the Bride of Christ is to go. The mass has been changing for 2000 years. It did not reach the point of perfection in the Tridentine form. Rather in the age of the rubricists the faithful were almost entirely removed from the mass and its meaning.

Edited October 18, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Fides_et_Ratio]

*cough*
[quote]"There are some who think that the centrality of the liturgy, rightly stressed by the Second Vatican Council, necessarily entails giving lesser importance to the Rosary. Yet, as Pope Paul VI made clear, not only does this prayer not conflict with the liturgy, [i]it sustains it[/i], since it serves as an excellent introduction and a faithful echo of the liturgy, enabling people to participate fully and interiorly in it and to reap its fruits in their daily lives"[/quote]
Courtesy our beloved late John Paul II in #4 of Rosarium Virginis Mariae.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:01 PM']The whole point of Mediator Dei and Sacrosanctum Concilium was to show that often people were not participating in the mass, and that the faithful should be active participants in their role as the lay faithful. Those who do not participate in the mass to not receive the graces from the mass. The faithful must be disposed to receiving the graces. If you pray a rosary during mass you have received the graces of praying a rosary, not of participating in the mass. (SC)
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If that is the point of Mediator Dei, the Holy Father had a strange way of saying it. In fact, it sounds like just the opposite. If one prays the Rosary at Mass, by virtue of that he participates in the Mass, especially if that is as far as he is able to go (either due to the distraction of his children which you may one day be blessed to experience, or due to his mental capacity). I suggest reading Mediator Dei, especially the sections through the mid 30's for a clear understanding of this.

[Brother Adam]

yeah, okay now let's see it in its full context and that it is not in contradiction with SC 11 and so on. I think the rosary is an excellent introduction and could be prayed before mass every Sunday morning. I'm not so sure JPII is saying what you are trying to make him say.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:27 PM']*cough*

Courtesy our beloved late John Paul II in #4 of Rosarium Virginis Mariae.
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Thank you for that most apt quote.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

As JPII would say... devotely praying the Rosary IS a partipation in the Liturgy. They are not at odds.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:29 PM']If that is the point of Mediator Dei, the Holy Father had a strange way of saying it.  In fact, it sounds like just the opposite.  If one prays the Rosary at Mass, by virtue of that he participates in the Mass, especially if that is as far as he is able to go (either due to the distraction of his children which you may one day be blessed to experience, or due to his mental capacity).  I suggest reading Mediator Dei, especially the sections through the mid 30's for a clear understanding of this.
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I guess its a good thing I just finished reading all of the liturgical documents then huh? Praying the rosary becuase you don't have the capacity to understand the mass is one thing. Praying it out of the neglect of either ecclesial leaders or willful ignorance is quite another.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:03 PM']I'd rather go through the birthing pains of liturgical reform and renewal called for by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to reach the place where the Bride of Christ is to go. The mass has been changing for 2000 years. It did not reach the point of perfection in the Tridentine form. Rather in the age of the rubricists the faithful were almost entirely removed from the mass and its meaning.
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I am quite certain that my quote was not an argument against the Novus Ordo, but was rather an argument against rediculous accusations made against the Tridentine Mass. It is useful to actually read the argument in the context in which it is made.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:31 PM']yeah, okay now let's see it in its full context and that it is not in contradiction with SC 11 and so on. I think the rosary is an excellent introduction and could be prayed before mass every Sunday morning. I'm not so sure JPII is saying what you are trying to make him say.
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Take it up with Dr. Miravalle and Rosarium Virginis Mariae....
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...-mariae_en.html[/url]


In context:

[quote]Objections to the Rosary

4. The timeliness of this proposal is evident from a number of considerations. First, the urgent need to counter a certain crisis of the Rosary, which in the present historical and theological context can risk being wrongly devalued, and therefore no longer taught to the younger generation. [b]There are some who think that the centrality of the Liturgy, rightly stressed by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, necessarily entails giving lesser importance to the Rosary. Yet, as Pope Paul VI made clear, not only does this prayer not conflict with the Liturgy, [i]it sustains it[/i], since it serves as an excellent introduction and a faithful echo of the Liturgy, enabling people to participate fully and interiorly in it and to reap its fruits in their daily lives.[/b]

Perhaps too, there are some who fear that the Rosary is somehow unecumenical because of its distinctly Marian character. Yet the Rosary clearly belongs to the kind of veneration of the Mother of God described by the Council: a devotion directed to the Christological centre of the Christian faith, in such a way that “when the Mother is honoured, the Son ... is duly known, loved and glorified”.(8) If properly revitalized, the Rosary is an aid and certainly not a hindrance to ecumenism![/quote]
I wasn't editing...not even the italics!

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:32 PM']As JPII would say... devotely praying the Rosary IS a partipation in the Liturgy. They are not at odds.
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And in so doing he was quite rightly re-affirming what Pope Pius XII asserted in Mediator Dei.

[Brother Adam]

Dr. Miraville is on an extreme fringe with Mariam devotion, I wouldn't even take his classes.

You are still trying to make the document say something it doesn't. Pious devotion to the mass and participation in it trumps praying the rosary DURING the mass. The rosary may sustain the liturgy, but there are times for the rosary. Would you say the words of consencration of the Eucharist during a baptism? Of course not.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:39 PM']Dr. Miraville is on an extreme fringe with Mariam devotion, I wouldn't even take his classes.

You are still trying to make the document say something it doesn't. Pious devotion to the mass and participation in it trumps praying the rosary DURING the mass. The rosary may sustain the liturgy, but there are times for the rosary. Would you say the words of consencration of the Eucharist during a baptism? Of course not.
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Though I think (especially in regards to apparitions), Dr. Miravalle is extreme... he's not off his rocker.

JPII IS specifically talking in that document about praying the Rosary DURING the Liturgy. No one would object to praying the Rosary before or after Mass.

Would you object to a priest silently praying the Rosary as he celebrates the Mass... or even a baptism?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:33 PM']I guess its a good thing I just finished reading all of the liturgical documents then huh? Praying the rosary becuase you don't have the capacity to understand the mass is one thing. Praying it out of the neglect of either ecclesial leaders or willful ignorance is quite another.
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I have also read the documents. In fact, I just read some of them again in order to prepare a response to this thread. So what?

The point is, one may pray the rosary at Mas as a way to activly participate in the Mass. This is not a problem. It has been going on for countless centuries, and continues to go on today (among some of the most devout catholics I know, and not all trads) in traditional and Novus Ordo parishes all over the world. And there is nothing wrong with it.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:39 PM']Dr. Miraville is on an extreme fringe with Mariam devotion, I wouldn't even take his classes.

You are still trying to make the document say something it doesn't. Pious devotion to the mass and participation in it trumps praying the rosary DURING the mass. The rosary may sustain the liturgy, but there are times for the rosary. Would you say the words of consencration of the Eucharist during a baptism? Of course not.
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Of couse not. It is a different sacrament. If you were a priest you would invalidate the sacarament if you did so in spite of, or instead of the proper form. What's your point?

Edited October 18, 2005 by popestpiusx

[Fides_et_Ratio]

For my own clarification.. how are the Rosary and the Mass at odds? Does praying the Rosary necessarily mean that one is disregarding the events of the Mass? Can one not do both at the same time?

Couldn't the Rosary lead one more deeply into the mysteries celebrated in the Liturgy?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:41 PM']Though I think (especially in regards to apparitions), Dr. Miravalle is extreme... he's not off his rocker.

JPII IS specifically talking in that document about praying the Rosary DURING the Liturgy. No one would object to praying the Rosary before or after Mass.

Would you object to a priest silently praying the Rosary as he celebrates the Mass... or even a baptism?
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I would certianly hope he is focusing on Jesus on the altar rather than Mary at that given moment absolutely.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:44 PM']For my own clarification.. how are the Rosary and the Mass at odds? Does praying the Rosary necessarily mean that one is disregarding the events of the Mass? Can one not do both at the same time?

Couldn't the Rosary lead one more deeply into the mysteries celebrated in the Liturgy?
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Why would you not give either your full attention?