Tridentine Mass not a priority?

[Aloysius]

okay yeah. my main point is that we shouldn't define them that way in the first place... sam's statement "gays can be priests" fails to reflect such an understanding.

[popestpiusx]

Sorry for the confusion.

[Aloysius]

no problem.

[jiyoung]

From my understanding...the reason why the Tridentine mass is not a priority for the synod is because reverence for the mass in general has become very diminished, right? So I think it would make sense to try and correct the problem of irreverence first before another mass rite, because, as beautiful as the Tridentine mass undoubtedly is, it may be treated with the same carelessness that the Novus Ordo is. So I think bringing back reverence for the Eucharist is first, and then bringing back the Tridentine mass. I'm sad to say that I've never had the pleasure of being to one and for the most part have only ever attended swingin' guitar praise song masses. I actually attended my first ever Latin chant mass yesterday by accident, but when I heard the cantor announce it my friends were teasing me about the big grin that had suddenly lit up my face. I think it'd be wonderful if the traditional Latin mass was brought back, but first things first, I guess. The Eucharist is still the Eucharist regardless of the rite, and if people don't properly worship the Eucharist in the context of the Novus Ordo mass, then they probably won't do so in the Tridentine rite, either, and so one must fix the root of the problem first.

[Donna]

Hey y'all, good to see ya agin.

Well, nothing new here, the trad-dinosaurs still left to ferret things out for themselves. God bless the priests who understand. Gosh, but it's slim pickins' out there, even w/ decent confession times, for not all confessors are learned.

But even there we've a window and a help in Theresa of Avilia, struggling with the same and worse. So don't forget us, Big Theresa!

It's really like the hurricane aftermath: you might get help from establishment but best not count on it.

Exiled Sea King, you've more energy than most, keeping this conversation alive. I hope your beloved is OK and all the little fishies, too.

Mer-i-lee we trad along
Trad alone
Trad along!

(Wooks wike some sweep is needed heah, Wabbits.)

[Donna]

Hi jiyoung, nice to meet you.

I disagree. The rubrics of the old rite are built in for reverence. Just the silence and priest facing an actual altar/tabernacle does a wonder in itself.

I like the description of the chant (and esp. your grin).

See ya.

[Donna]

ESK (exiled Sea King aka PSPX) I'm confused!

Here on page 2 o' this thread suddenly appears your original post...but labeled that it was posted YESTERDAY (at 8:36 pm) while it's obviously now TODAY at whatever am.

Almost as if you've some kind of Power in posting that I did not know about.

er...are you a saint? um, pray for me?

[Donna]

So...jiyoung, what I'm saying is the exact opposite of what you did: that the old Mass would in itself do much to instill reverence for the Eucharist. imo, it would do the most. But many would disagree, and some of them are older and grew up with the Latin Mass.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Donna' date='Oct 18 2005, 02:20 AM']ESK (exiled Sea King aka PSPX) I'm confused!

Here on page 2 o' this thread suddenly appears your original post...but labeled that it was posted YESTERDAY (at 8:36 pm) while it's obviously now TODAY at whatever am.

Almost as if you've some kind of Power in posting that I did not know about.

er...are you a saint? um, pray for me?
[right][snapback]762157[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
perhaps your computer is broken? I don't see it?

or else it's a private apparition. tell him to pray for me too I guess... :

[Donna]

Whoa!

You're right, Al! It IS a private apparition!

"Lord, I promise I'll be better from now on!" This is what I say everytime God sends me a special favor or manifestation.

[Donna]

OK, I think I'd better copy -n- paste it next post to prove

1) That ESK has done this
2) that I am of sound mind and body

[jiyoung]

I think that for those who really do understand and believe in the Eucharist, the Tridentine rite may be much more meaningful and is bound to instill reverence in them. But as far as those who are not so devoted to the Eucharist, I don't think a change in the rite would suddenly make them understand the gravity of the fact that they rarely go to Confession and therefore defile the Blessed Sacrament. I'm rather convinced that catechesis is the answer to all of this Knowledge is power ^^ But our current culture is so corrupted that I'm afraid the beauty of the traditional liturgy would be lost on the "average Sunday Catholic." The way society goes, everything has to have some sort of entertainment value, which I think largely accounts for the prevalence of "rockin' guitar masses." (I have no problem with praise music as long as it's not used in the mass...) It's a fast food culture, and the vast majority are too impatient to really contemplate the intricacies of the traditional liturgy. I don't think the "average Sunday Catholic" is ready for it; I think the first step is for us as a Church to rediscover a devotion to the Eucharist, and that will prepare us for the Tridentine liturgy. I'm just sad that it's probably gonna be years for it to reach my area though--though I live in Orange County, I go to a parish in the LA Archdiocese. While that church is very orthodox and wonderful and would probably have lots of people who would love a traditional Latin mass, I doubt Cardinal Mahony will go from liturgical dancers to allowing the Tridentine rite to be celebrated in *his* archdiocese anytime soon.

[Donna]

Sorry to muck up the carpets dUSt, but we'd better tarck this stuff for the beatification committee once the Sea King has passed on.
________________

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popestpiusx Yesterday, 08:36 PM Post #1


The exiled King of the Sea


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Guest Commentary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tridentine Mass not a Priority
By Brian Mershon
MichNews.com
Oct 17, 2005




As the week wraps up, Catholics received a flurry of headlines from the Synod on the Eucharist in Rome. Also, toward the end of this week, Archbishop Chaput of Denver commented on the results of the Second Vatican Council being “mixed” to date. And finally, Cardinal Arinze mentioned in a news conference that the Traditional Latin Mass had not been mentioned by any of the Synod Fathers because it was “not a priority” for the Synod.



He then went on to add the following amazing statement: “The problem we have discussed is that many people don't go to Mass, and those that come don't understand -- they go to Communion but not to confession, as if they were immaculate.” I’m certain the Cardinal Prefect was not intentionally trying to be ironic in the positioning of those two statements.



So the Bishops at the Synod discussed many things, but a common topic discussed was that many bishops’ desired to “find a way” to have “intercommunion” with non-Catholics. The other major problems outlined above by Cardinal Arinze had to do with the lack of understanding or disbelief in the mysterium fidei of the Holy Eucharist. But amazingly, any discussion of the “Tridentine Mass,” so-called, was “not a priority.”



And Vatican II talked about reading “the signs of the times” accurately.



Pope John Paul II issued a document on the state of the Church in Europe and called it an “apostasy.” Archbishop Chaput stated that we must live our faith more boldly like St. Athanasius, who was exiled by many bishops, and actually excommunicated by the Pope in his day. Does this remind any traditional Catholics of any Archbishop they know? The Synod Fathers don’t seem to be able to accurately gauge the cause of “the signs of the times” of their empty churches and few priestly vocations, but the Tridentine Mass is “not a priority” for the synod.



Am I getting the facts right here? For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them hear.



For the two or three Sundays each month in which I am blessed to be able to attend the Traditional Latin Mass, I encounter very few who attend who lack belief in transubstantiation. I encounter very few who are receiving our Lord in a state of mortal sin or who consciously reject a dogma of the Faith, yet still receive Holy Communion.



And at nearly every Traditional Latin Mass location I have attended around the United States, the priest is usually available for a set time ON SUNDAY prior to Holy Mass, to hear the confessions of the faithful—not at some extremely inconvenient time like 3 or 4 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon. In other words, most priests who offer the Traditional Latin Mass, and most especially those who offer it exclusively, hear many confessions prior to every Mass they offer. One Traditional Priest in Rockford, Illinois hears confessions for a set time EVERY DAY prior to Holy Mass, with one and one half hours of confession on Saturday afternoon, and another 45 minutes prior to his Sunday Mass.



But the “Tridentine Mass” so-called, is “not a priority for the Synod,” according to the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.



It is not well-publicized, but Kenneth Jones has written a book entitled: Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II. In it, Mr. Jones emotionlessly statistically documents the precipitous decline of numbers of vocations to the priesthood, numbers of priests, numbers of Catholic schools, numbers of conversions, numbers of Catholics attending Catholic schools, numbers of baptisms, numbers of marriages in the Church, numbers of religious vocations in the U.S. prior to, and after, the Second Vatican Council—an objective and sobering, and quite frankly, depressing overview of the “signs of the times” for the U.S. Church. The same decline can be seen across Western Europe as well, but at a more alarming rate.



But one of our leading U.S. Bishops calls these sobering results regarding the legacy of the Second Vatican Council as “mixed.” Pardon me for by brashness and boldness, but what would be considered a cataclysmal collapse?



The entire Synod of the Eucharist has bishops decrying the lack of Faith in the Eucharist, which quite frankly, if the news reports are accurate, some of them display in their cry for “intercommunion” by heretics and schismatics.



But the “Tridentine Mass” so-called, is “not a priority for the Synod” and 40 years after the close of the Second Vatican Council, one archbishop calls the nearly complete collapse of the Faith in the U.S. and Europe as “mixed.”



And the same cardinal prefect, not intending to be derogatory, but merely stating a fact, said: “The problem we have discussed is that many people don't go to Mass, and those that come don't understand -- they go to Communion but not to confession, as if they were immaculate."



Priests who offer the Traditional Latin Mass have long lines for confession, and they hear confessions when it is convenient for people to go—when they are already at Church prior to Mass. Sheer ingenious rocket science!



We have an apostasy in the Church among the vast majority of baptized Catholics, many priests, bishops and even cardinals. We have a Eucharistic Synod just completing where the major theme was about the collapse of belief in transubstantiation—the mysterium Fidei—the Holy Eucharist.



But the “Tridentine mass” so-called, is “not a priority for the Synod.”



For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them see and hear—and read the signs of the times.



Pray for an end to communion in the hand and under the species of wine, where it is spilled and trampled under feet daily. Pray for a return to the normal reception (currently, the universal NORM in the entire Catholic Church) of Holy Communion kneeling. Pray for an end to the non-ordained administering the Holy Eucharist to the laity.



Pray for reparation to be made against the sacrilege, outrage, indifference and irreverence shown to the Holy Eucharist and the Blessed Sacrament.



Pray to Pope St. Pius X for the freeing of the Traditional Latin Mass to all Latin-rite priests on all the altars of the world on a daily basis. Pray for an end to the apostasy in the Church and for more courageous bishops to follow the leads of Archbishop Burke in St. Louis, Bishop Doran in Rockford, Illiniois, and Bishop Bruskewitz in Lincoln, Nebraska, to give a “wide and generous” application of the Traditional Latin rite of Mass to their priests and laity.



And most of all, pray for a truly heartfelt and humble reading of “the signs of the times” as the bishops close this year of the Holy Eucharist.



Copyright October 2005 by Brian Mershon


Copyright© MichNews.com. All Rights Reserved.



--------------------

Legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi.



2 Pages < 1 2

Replies(25 - 31)
Donna Today, 01:17 AM Post #26


PM Pham


Group: Phatmasser
Posts: 2031
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Warn: (0%)

Hi jiyoung, nice to meet you.

I disagree. The rubrics of the old rite are built in for reverence. Just the silence and priest facing an actual altar/tabernacle does a wonder in itself.

I like the description of the chant (and esp. your grin).

See ya.


--------------------

He must increase and I must decrease.


Donna Today, 01:20 AM Post #27


PM Pham


Group: Phatmasser
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Warn: (0%)

ESK (exiled Sea King aka PSPX) I'm confused!

Here on page 2 o' this thread suddenly appears your original post...but labeled that it was posted YESTERDAY (at 8:36 pm) while it's obviously now TODAY at whatever am.

Almost as if you've some kind of Power in posting that I did not know about.

er...are you a saint? um, pray for me?


--------------------

He must increase and I must decrease.


Donna Today, 01:25 AM Post #28


PM Pham


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Warn: (0%)

So...jiyoung, what I'm saying is the exact opposite of what you did: that the old Mass would in itself do much to instill reverence for the Eucharist. imo, it would do the most. But many would disagree, and some of them are older and grew up with the Latin Mass.



--------------------

He must increase and I must decrease.


Aloysius Today, 01:27 AM Post #29


Phat<latin>masser


Group: Church Faithful
Posts: 13086
Joined: 28-July 03
From: St. Vincent College




QUOTE(Donna @ Oct 18 2005, 02:20 AM)ESK (exiled Sea King aka PSPX) I'm confused!

Here on page 2 o' this thread suddenly appears your original post...but labeled that it was posted YESTERDAY (at 8:36 pm) while it's obviously now TODAY at whatever am.

Almost as if you've some kind of Power in posting that I did not know about.

er...are you a saint? um, pray for me?



perhaps your computer is broken? I don't see it?

or else it's a private apparition. tell him to pray for me too I guess...


--------------------

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine
There's always laughter and good red wine
At least I've always found it so
Benedicamus Domino!

"What business are we in?" -Mr. Kuzma
"The business of building cities!" -Mr. Dougherty

[url="http://www.chesterbel.net"]http://www.chesterbel.net[/url]


Donna Today, 01:54 AM Post #30


PM Pham


Group: Phatmasser
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Warn: (0%)

Whoa!

You're right, Al! It IS a private apparition!

"Lord, I promise I'll be better from now on!" This is what I say everytime God sends me a special favor or manifestation.


--------------------

He must increase and I must decrease.


Donna Today, 01:56 AM Post #31


PM Pham


Group: Phatmasser
Posts: 2031
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Warn: (0%)

OK, I think I'd better copy -n- paste it next post to prove

1) That ESK has done this
2) that I am of sound mind and body


--------------------

He must increase and I must decrease.


jiyoung Today, 01:57 AM

[Aloysius]

so like I said, learn from what they do right.

there's really nothing that says the missa normativa cannot be offered ad orientum.

the universal norm of the Church is still kneeling while receiving communion under one kind in the tongue..

offering confession before mass would be easily accomplishable, the bishops should order it be done before every sunday mass.

Latin is still technically the NORM for the missa normativa, vernacular is still technically an exception.

Cardinal Mahoney would be going against the wishes of our previous Holy Father Pope John Paul II who called for widespread application of the norms for allowing the Tridentine Mass if he denied a legitimate orthodox community that expressed their rightful aspiritions for the tridentine liturgy.

[Donna]

Hi jiyoung.

Well said. Maybe it' is how you say...we need the reverence enstilled first. But I still disagree, even taking in all you did say re: the fast sound byte pop culture. For ppl can also get impatient with trite.

I look at it like this - if someone's starving, they need to eat. After awhile can come time for them to learn why starving themselves is so hurtful + strategies to cope when they are tempted to mistreat themselves. In other words, let them go and partake of the Latin Mass, yes, knowing nothing, but keep to that diet for awhile. (btw, I'm not referring to anything here, any other rite, other than the L. Mass)

You might be surprised how being around that liturgy (something one may indeed not understand) can directly lead to the confessional.

Or so I like to think...but it's true, I believe, in my own house w/ a teenager. This child wouldn't be the type to be on PM, OK? And yet I see effects, because one cannot be around something and it not have SOME kind of effect, over time. When trouble comes, that teen child turns to religion. It's a good start.

Even Therese was asleep after communion but she said that Parents love their children no less when they sleep, nor does the sleeping patient make it harder for the surgeon to work his magic.

But the point there is that Therese WANTED to be worked upon by the Lord. There's where good will comes in, and it only takes the tiniest amt of it on our part...then heaven literally can be the limit.

Who knows how many would recognize the supernatural food via the Latin Mass? A lot of things've been tried: why not this?

I do completely agree about catechesis. It will take a varied assault, as it were, not just a Latin Mass, to give more favorable conditions which may turn things around. Confession, catechism, schools, the list goes on, which we all know.

Also, if you would break up your posts into paragraphs, it would help these aging eyes to better read them.

[Donna]

Well, that's fine, Al, but the Cardinal will do what he will and in the meantime jiyoung and others must take care of themselves, for the Cardinal is like counting on govt to save yo **s during the dang hurricane aftrmath.

They don't care about JPII's indult.

[jiyoung]

I don't have the highest opinion of Cardinal Mahony, but I suppose it's up to God and the Pope to deal with him, right? And in the meanwhile, I would just ask for prayers for our diocese...

You know, I think when done properly, the Novus Ordo is just as good a vessel for God's work as the Tridentine rite. I think the main thing is that we keep our eyes focused on the Eucharist and promoting devotion to it, instead of bickering about rites (not that this is bickering, but you've gotta admit there's a lot of it going on). And by "done properly" I do mean reverently, perhaps with Latin, and none of this liturgical dance nonsense or whatnot.

Although I do agree that being in the presence of something so holy repeatedly can bring about change. Still, the priority is not bringing back the Tridentine rite full force, but Eucharistic devotion, so I think baby steps are appropriate.

I know personally a guy who goes to daily mass regularly yet does drugs and such...I don't think thrusting him into the Tridentine rite would do any better for him. I'm really not sure what would be the best method, so at this point I think it is wisest to leave it in the hands of the Church, who, after all, was promised to be guided by the Spirit into all truth. I have but a glancing knowledge of all these things and I think it's best to leave it to the Pope, who does have that pastoral role over us. I trust that God will lead the Pope, who will in turn lead us to God.

[Donna]

Well, your opening paragraph there is stunning!

Thanks for expressing yourself fully re: the rest of your post. I, too, knew of a cocained man...going to the Latin Mass. Where is he now? OK, I hope, but most likely not...there is much we need outta the realm of the liturgy, but I know what you mean.

Appreciato them paragraphs, too.

[Donna]

OK now dUSt (or his Moderators) did you note that time discrepancy on the copy n paste post?

It says that PSPX's post was #1 and gives the time, and then the next post (mine) is labeled post #26 (I think), so OK there's the proof.

This is for page 2 now of the thread, ' K?

I'm so glad my computer isn't -presently- broken.
______________

PS: Sea King, I thought of invoking you for a split second, something pius like "Have pity on me", but then immediatey knew you would disdain that more than dUSt disdains outright praise.

Sorry! Sorry! (John Cleese imitation of Basil Fawlty), to hijack your thread, but it's hard to let this go.

Edited October 18, 2005 by Donna

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Donna' date='Oct 18 2005, 02:13 AM']

Exiled Sea King, you've more energy than most, keeping this conversation alive. I hope your beloved is OK and all the little fishies, too.


(Wooks wike some sweep is needed heah, Wabbits.)
[right][snapback]762153[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
All are well, thanks for asking.