What about us Protestants?

[jezic]

welcome.

It is good to have people here who question ...

[Guest Sword]

Thanks for your responses......

Cam42..
...I find it very hard for you simply to brush the deaths of thousands, if not millions of people to one side, by the use of a single word !!... "misconception".....it is proven history what happened, nothing can change this..
If, thePopes have been an un-interrupted line of God chosen men to lead a church on this earth......why the bloodshed???????

The Bible was refused to the common people during the dark ages.....that"s why King James ordered the translation......which.....is THE CLOSEST to the Dead Sea Scrolls version yet?....

Why need a catechism.......surly the word of God in the Bible is enough?.....why add all modified cult symbols from ancient civilisations...???? i.e...

1 Prayer Beads.........[from Egypt and Hindus]
2 Praying to a "Queen of Heaven".
...[from Egypt, greece, and [B]BABYLON]
3..Confession......from [Egypt]
4..Holy Water....[Egypt]

Sword

[StatingTheObvious]

Sword, don't be dull. If inquisition a matter of documented 'history', then what is it, millions or thousands? What's your sources, the anti-Catholic preacher? Today, people will give you links to scholarly, non-religious sources, that will debunk your 'many thousands, if not millions'.

As far as bloodshed, what's the problem with that? You should know the bloody sword has served the Lord.

And do a little research into the 'pagan' symbols. Catholicism is the mature Jewish religion.

You'll get your response, but don't complain that you're being overwelmed. You're the one who made the many accusations.

[jezic]

It is good to question.

As far as the symbols, maybe it is something like this. People find that their lives can be transformed in Christ, so that while biologically they are still the same person, on the spiritual level they are completely renewed. Many things work the same way. Symbols, that were once pagan, can be changed. Most of them have a very solid theological backing anyway.

One must also recognize that even in pagan religions there were a few rays of truth. Maybe it was one of the things that they got almost right.

[cmotherofpirl]

Sword read this stuff, then comeback and discuss it
: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/340"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/340[/url]

[Jake Huether]

Peter was the first Pope:

John 18

10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear.

Why is it so unfamiliar to think that his followers might also have his same zeal!

Popes, Bishops, Priests... humans are sinners! Jesus chose sinners to lead His Church, to show that it isn't by thier power that the gates of Hell will not prevail. It is by His Power!

Popes are protected by the Holy Spirit, infallible, when teaching in matters of faith and morals. But in action and in all other aspects of life popes are just like everyone else.

Welcome, Sword. I hope that you are able to make yourself at home here. There is much to learn about Catholicism.

We love Jesus, Our Lord and Savior. We love His written Word, Holy Scripture. We are on fire for God and at His service.

God bless and again welcome to the Pham!

[Brother Adam]

Amusing...


You've been fed horrid lies about our Catholic faith. I'm sorry you took them seriously, but I don't blame you when you had no one there to share the truth.

So here is my question: If you wanted to learn about Buddhism, would you ask a Muslim? If you wanted to learn why your automobile was acting up, would you ask your doctor? If you want to learn about Catholicism, don't ask someone who protests Catholicism, they will probably lie. It is demonic and dark forces that are at work in protesting the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God incarnate. Satan even pretends to be a beacon of light at times.

If you want to know about the Catholic Church this is a good place to start, but ask yourself, are you truly interested in learning about the Catholic faith? Are you willing to make a good faith effort to learn what the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church believes?

16* Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshipped him; but some doubted. 18* And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19* Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20* teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

[ofpheritup]

Sword,
Hi, its me again. I left the Church for about 3 years and I "researched."

I am back in the Church for a few reasons.

The Eucharist...Unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have
no life within you. He said it, I don't understand it but He said it and seeing that Jesus died on the cross for me I'll take His word for it.

The Papacy...If you start with our Pope today and go backwards in time eventually you will run back into St. Peter. If you can find any other Church that can show its lineage I'll consider leaving. MAYBE, eh not really.

Jesus promised 'the gates of hell would not prevail" against HIS church. I do not see any other church being PERSECUTED to the extent that the Catholic Church is. We are PERSECUTED because we are a threat to Satan, why else would Jesus promise to protect us? When another church comes under the amount of persecution that the Catholic Church does again I'll consider leaving.... Uh, nope, but hey it was a thought.

The Catholic Church has been in existence for over 2000 years. If Jesus did not have His hand on the Church it would have "blown up" long ago.
We are a Church of saints and sinners. If it were not for Jesus we would have "canceled" each other out long ago.

oops got to go my "babies" are coming back....I'll pick this up later.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sword' date='Oct 31 2005, 04:37 AM']Thanks for your responses......

Cam42..
    ...I find it very hard for you simply to brush the deaths of  thousands, if not millions of people to one side, by the use of a single word !!... "misconception".....it is proven history what happened, nothing can change this..
    If, thePopes have been an un-interrupted line of God chosen men to lead a church on this earth......why the bloodshed???????

    The Bible was refused to the common people during the dark ages.....that"s why King James ordered the translation......which.....is THE CLOSEST to the Dead Sea Scrolls version yet?....

    Why need a catechism.......surly the word of God in the Bible is enough?.....why add all modified cult symbols from ancient civilisations...????  i.e...

  1 Prayer Beads.........[from Egypt and Hindus]
  2 Praying to a "Queen of Heaven".
          ...[from Egypt, greece, and [B]BABYLON]
  3..Confession......from [Egypt]
  4..Holy Water....[Egypt]
 
          Sword
[right][snapback]774686[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

If the Inquisition killed millions (the same number as the Black Plague), I'm sure we would have heard about it.

God chose Judas, didn't He? Yet, Judas caused the most horrible bloodshed in human history. God doesn't choose perfect people; He chooses weak people, sinners, so that He can show His glory. Now I ask you a different question...if an uninterrupted line of sinners has been in control of the Papacy, including at times popes who were children, and yet the Papacy still stands without ever contradicting its doctrines or leading to the collapse of the Church, doesn't that show that there must be a greater power keeping control of the Church? God chooses the weak to show forth His own providence. Undoubtedly, the Church has also had saintly popes. A house divided against itself cannot stand...the Papacy is authentic--and the incompetence of some popes and the sanctity of others proves it.

As I pointed out already, the Bible was not refused to the common people, the Bible was unavailable to them. It's fruitless to argue that the common people should have had it made available to them...they couldn't read! Do you know why they couldn't read? Because you need to have things to read in the first place in order to learn to read. Do you know why those things weren't available? Because the printing press was not invented yet. Well why didn't the Church translate the works into the vernacular for those who could afford manuscripts? Because those who could afford manuscripts were fluent in Latin anyway. It would have been a pointless waste of time and money to translate. Instead, the Church produced works of art so that the poor could see them and get some insight into the faith. Additionally, the Church promoted religious education in the form of structured catechesis so that even though the people couldn't read, they could at least learn the Gospel by the words of their teachers.

The Catechism is necessary because we have to pass down the proper interpretation of the Bible. Protestantism as proven that the Bible itself is open to various interpretations. The Church, which is the fullness of and a continuation of Israel, sets the "cultural" background, if you will, so that those who are raised in the Church understand how to interpret Scripture properly. Jesus meant something specific by what He said. So did the Apostles and the Evangelists who recorded what He said. Passing down what they knew and how they interpretted allows the modern Christian to read the Bible and study the faith and to meet Jesus himself, in a personal and covenantal relationship. Have you ever read any part of the Catechism? Seriously...read it and look at the footnotes. You'll be shocked how much comes straight from the Bible.

1. You cite that prayer beads come from both Egypt and the Hindus. Well, which was it? Which one had them first? Is it possible that they both had them independently from one another (which is likely)? That would mean that the Catholic Church could also have them independently, without taking them from either Egyptian paganism or Hinduism. In fact, that is exactly what happened. The Rosary was invented by Irish monks (who had no way to know the Egyptian custom, let alone the Hindu one). They would tie knots on ropes and pray one psalm for each of 150, in order to keep track of their psalms and which they were on. Later, St. Dominic created the prayer "Hail Mary," drawing its words from Scripture in order to fight back the heresies which denied Christ's humanity. The Hail Mary is Christ-centered because it proves that Christ was truly man (since He was both of a human mother). Thus, the devotion of praying 150 Hail Mary's came about instead and the Rosary has a long history of slight changes from that basic form until now.

2. You cite Mary as Queen of Heaven. Indeed, she is. Yet again, you imply that we stole this title from multiple sources. Now, Satan is a pretty smart creature. You think maybe he saw it coming that Christ would make Mary the Queen of Heaven and tried to abuse the title before it would happen, in order to keep people like you from seeing its beauty. So let's ignore the pagans for just a minute...is there something wrong with calling Mary the Queen of Heaven? Christ is the King of Heaven and she is His mother. The Queen Mother in the Old Testament was a symbol of the power of the king. The mother of the king was obviously the queen, but she was only queen because her son was the king, not because she had any power apart from him. The same is true of Mary. Her Son is the King...that makes her the Queen. It's quite irrelevant that the pagans also used this title. Pagans also used the word "god" and even had myths about people being both man and god, about the sons of gods, about gods who died, etc....but do any of those things make it impossible that Christ was God, that He was both God and man, that He is the Son of God, or that He died?

3. You cite Confession as coming from Egypt. Well, let's look at what "Confession" means. Confession means "belief"...seems simple enough. Last time I checked, believing in God and going to anyone, priest or not, to declare your belief in God was a good thing. Now, what if you're declaring your belief in God's mercy...hey, that's great, tell everyone! God is merciful! However, what you really mean is the act of going to a priest and asking for forgiveness. Now, we see in the Gospels that Christ wanted His Apostles to go and forgive sins. We also see in the Book of Acts that the Apostles hand on their power as Apostles and we see in the Gospels that they may ordain others to go about Christ's work. That means that there are certain people with the authority to forgive sins. That also implies that there are certain others without that authority. You can't forgive your own sin...that would make you some sort of magician. No, we know that the sinner needs to go to another to be lifted up...no sinner can help himself off the ground...another needs to pick him up. So if you're in sin, you need to go to another and ask for forgiveness. Yet it's not their forgiveness, but God's forgiveness. Now, why not just go to God? Well, if God had just wanted you to come to Him, why would He bother leaving Apostles behind to do it for Him? God wants you to go to them. Why? Because it is part of God's plan that man may cooperate in His plan of redemption.

4. Holy Water is also from the Old Testament. I recommend you read this: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18966"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18966[/url]

God bless,

Micah

[toledo_jesus]

uh oh Sword. you roused them.


They're right, by the by.