Sick of cafeteria Catholicism ...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 31 2005, 12:14 PM']If its good enough for the Church, maybe you shoud reconsider.
[right][snapback]774806[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Hey, if Jesus is man enough to be there... No excuse for me not to be.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Jesus is also at masses celebrated by schismatics, who are in heresy.

[tojo]

I often go pasta couple of parishes to attend the nearby charismatic parish. It's a non-geographic parish for charismatics in our region of the diocese, so I think that's okay. However, I'm also heavily involved in my student chapel, which since I'm a student and live across the street from campus and down the street from the chapel, I ought to be. I would never miss mass just because I couldn't get to my favorite parish.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 31 2005, 05:07 PM']Jesus is also at masses celebrated by schismatics, who are in heresy.
[right][snapback]775141[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Yes, but wouldn't you rather go somewhere where Jesus wants to meet you? I'd rather go meet Jesus in a place that is known for being loyal to Him.

Yet, if the situation presented itself that I had to go to a valid but poorly celebrated Mass or no Mass, I'd pick Mass.

If it was between valid and licit, but not tasteful, and valid but not licit, I'd pick the former.

If it was between Mass celebrated by two priests who are just as notorious for disobedience, yet one was an official schismatic and the other was not, I'd go to Mass with the one who was not (to avoid scandal, for one).

There are many factors...you must choose what is MOST loyal to Christ.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 31 2005, 09:57 AM']Are you -passing up a lot of other parishes to do this?
[right][snapback]774736[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

One. Well two but that one (20 miles away) is out of the question. We went there for as long as we've lived here then preists changed and it got bad then preists changed again and it got really bad. Mom was D.R.E. for ten years and she loved that job. i can't tell you what happened. But if you do a search on google for the preist at this place you get a media advisory that says he was in possession of illegal substances. And it isn't just the priest. It is the people there too. Can't tell about them either. I will tell you this. When we lost the good preist, there were 250 people there. When we left there were 110 they hadn't moved,either cuz you would see them around town, they just quit coming. . And people keep telling us that even more people have quit coming. It's a REALLY BAD situation there.They really need prayers.
Then [i]we[/i] pass one on the way to Mass. We travel 15 miles further because
A) the youth group and RE is on Sunday enabling us to go.
B)we knew kids from deanery and Diosisan(sp) things there and they really wanted us to go there.
My parents pass one because the same preist is at that church. And a different one because half the time the preist there does not say all of the Mass and makes up the Eucharistic prayer as he goes along.
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 31 2005, 10:34 AM']Agreed.
Its also better to stay in a parish and try to correct the errors then drive somewhere else.
[right][snapback]774758[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Mom did for over two years. We never would have left except my Dad- who is not Catholic- said Why would I want to be Catholic if this is what Catholics are like.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='OldFashionedGirl' date='Oct 31 2005, 10:28 AM']instead of having to worry about where the tabernacle is, whether you can kneel down to receieve Holy Communion, and the guys in back of you whoes little kids are asking for the purple crayon to color in Barney.
[right][snapback]774789[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

AND THIS IS WHEN MY BLOOD PRESSURE GOES UP.

Edited November 1, 2005 by ofpheritup

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 31 2005, 05:15 PM']Yes, but wouldn't you rather go somewhere where Jesus wants to meet you?  I'd rather go meet Jesus in a place that is known for being loyal to Him.

Yet, if the situation presented itself that I had to go to a valid but poorly celebrated Mass or no Mass, I'd pick Mass.

If it was between valid and licit, but not tasteful, and valid but not licit, I'd pick the former.

If it was between Mass celebrated by two priests who are just as notorious for disobedience, yet one was an official schismatic and the other was not, I'd go to Mass with the one who was not (to avoid scandal, for one).

There are many factors...you must choose what is MOST loyal to Christ.
[right][snapback]775146[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The only way some of these places are going to get loyal is if we try to make them that way.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 1 2005, 09:51 AM']The only way some of these places are going to get loyal is if we try to make them that way.
[right][snapback]775772[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


THIS IS QUITE POSSIBLY ONE OF THE WISEST THINGS I HAVE READ ON PHATMASS.

YEAH CMOM !

[beatty07]

Wow...have you explained that that pretty much crosses the line into Lefebvrism? OK, not 'pretty much', definitely!

We had a great lecture response about how these people are really liberals at heart...they have an "ideal" Church in their head that they are loyal too, while ignoring the authority of the real Church. I thought that was pretty clever.

Isn't there a Pope Pius XIII in Montana she could contact for a dispensation? This is worth a look.

[url="http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/"]http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/[/url]

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i am a Lefebvrist....

[beatty07]

That's too bad...it's lotsa fun having a Pope!

I'm guessing you're a "See is vacant" Lefebvrist, not a "Pius XIII exiled to Montana" Lefebvrist?

Can I ask you a whole lot of questions? I don't get to talk to many Lefebvrists here at the seminary!

Edited November 6, 2005 by beatty07

[Aloysius]

the SSPX (Lefebvre's Society) and Lefebvre himself rejected sedevacantism. the SSPX removes sedevacantist priests. even the remannt newspaper (I don't subscribe, but I recently got my hands on one from a friend) has been publishing a lot of anti-sedevacantist propaganda. it is incorrect to paint the whole schismatic traditionalist movement as sedevacantist.

The SSPX bishops and priests are in schism. Those who attend SSPX chapels, while they are committing a schismatic act, are not necessarily in formal schism (and we pray they shall never descend into that, for then the traditionalist movement would be as lost to the papacy as the eastern churches were a millenium ago).

I'd also like to say that there [i]is[/i] a certain "ideal church" we should all be devoted to which no man, even if he ascend to the seat of Peter itself, can change.

The error is mostly in rejecting the Second Vatican Council rather than trying to fight for it from the bosom of that ideal Church that still exists and will always exist.

[beatty07]

you're right, of course, about there being an "ideal Church" in some way that requires our devotion. I guess I was trying to say that you know you're in trouble when that devotion leads you away from the actual, historically situated, flesh and blood Church that exists. The one that Christ founded, including Judas and his ilk from the beginning. The one that's so imperfect in its human dimension that they even let ME in!

Thanks for the info...so if the see isn't vacant, from their perspective, who's the Pope?

[Aloysius]

Former Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI.

they have a picture of him on their website along with a little statement of filial devotion, I would link but we're not allowed to cause PhatMass refuses to promote schismatic societies.

They refuse to acknowledge they are in schism from him, but they have been in dialogues with Rome for many years hoping to make unity with the Church clear. Rome is not trying to make pre-existing unity clear, Rome is trying to re-establish unity with a schismatic flock. There are certain prideful things the SSPX must renounce first, though. I really would like to see the society re-unified to the Church, they would be a valuable asset if they could be reigned into true obedience to the Church and thus stabilized (they have a lot of disorder and troubles, that's what happens when you schism)

[Ash Wednesday]

I have to wonder how some people can get much out of mass when they spend so much time scoping out how poorly parishioners are dressed, or making a grocery list of the things the priest is doing wrong.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when there are things that are obviously really awful that go on -- the kinds of things that even a common Catholic like me would pick up -- but I can understand Dave's frustrations. It's easy (for all of us) to lose sight and get our priorities mixed up.

I went to a Novus Ordo mass here in London on All Saints, but it was said in Latin. It was absolutely beautiful.

[JP2Iloveyou]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Nov 6 2005, 06:11 PM']I have to wonder how some people can get much out of mass when they spend so much time scoping out how poorly parishioners are dressed, or making a grocery list of the things the priest is doing wrong.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when there are things that are obviously really awful that go on -- the kinds of things that even a common Catholic like me would pick up -- but I can understand Dave's frustrations. It's easy (for all of us) to lose sight and get our priorities mixed up.

I went to a Novus Ordo mass here in London on All Saints, but it was said in Latin. It was absolutely beautiful.  
[right][snapback]780505[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Exactly. Mass is Mass is Mass. I have rehashed this debate time and time again, so I'm not going to go into it now. Let me just say this, when we go to Mass, and that's ANY Mass or ANY Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Church, we should not go trying to "get as much out of it" as we can. We go to GIVE as much as we can. We offer ourselves, our successes, our failings, our sorrows, our joys, our sins, and our acts of charity to the Father with our Lord Jesus. Whether or not you get ANYTHING out of Mass is really irrelevant. I can't understand an otherwise faithful Catholic allowing herself to commit a sin by not attending Mass on All Saints Day, a Holy Day of Obligation, simply because she couldn't attend the Tridentine Mass.

Some times, I really just wish that instead of granting some supposed universal indult for celebrating the Tridentine Mass, the Holy See would disallow its use entirely. Now, understand, I said SOMETIMES. I don't really want the Holy See to disallow the use of the Tridentine Mass, or think they will for that matter. I just think that as it stands right now, there is a lot of division among Catholics. At least some of that could be rectified if the Church would simply say that the Mass we are to use is the Novus Ordo. Again, I am really just venting a frustration and I don't really want to see the Trid. Mass use suspended, but many who frequent it really need to examine their hearts to see if they really are in union with and are obedient to the Church they claim to love.

[Aloysius]

I'd rather see them make the Tridentine Mass the missa normativa of the roman rite again than that!

[MC Just]

[quote name='curtins' date='Oct 31 2005, 03:21 PM']Whats wrong with Norvuous Ordous Mass?
[right][snapback]775085[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

nothing, unless its overly misenterpreted like half the parishes in usa. I go to a novus ordo mass, thats in latin.

[MC Just]

some people think Vatican II was a free for all for church renovation and refromation.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i believe that their is a pope Benedict XVI. Lefebvre (sp?) was not a sedevacantist.