Capital Punishment in the USA

[Jaime]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:27 PM']Actually hot stuff, the Holy See was a statement on behalf of a speaker who was under the Cardinal at the time, so Cardinal Ratzinger wins. 
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The head of the Holy See is the Holy Father.

[qfnol31]

He wasn't speaking that day.

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:28 PM']I did. 
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You did not.

[Socrates]

Ratzinger was speaking as representing the Holy See. He knew what he was talking about.
There is no contradiction here. He is merely clarifying that exactly when capital punishment may and may not be applied is a matter of opinion, rather than dogma.

[qfnol31]

I said I don't care what the rare exceptions are, just that the possibility exists. I also said that in places such as Africa or even South America they are more common than here, but I don't pay attention to specifics. I likewise mentioned Timothy McVeigh and Saddam Hussein as two modern examples (and hinted at Osama bin Laden).

[Jaime]

Answer my question Soc

Is the Holy See wrong for calling for the end of the death penalty?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:32 PM']Ratzinger was speaking as representing the Holy See.  He knew what he was talking about.
There is no contradiction here.  He is merely clarifying that exactly when capital punishment may and may not be applied is a matter of opinion, rather than dogma.
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[/quote]


Wanna try again......you are wrong.

[qfnol31]

Yes.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:34 PM']Wanna try again......you are wrong.
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[/quote]

If he's wrong, then what's right?

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:33 PM']I said I don't care what the rare exceptions are, just that the possibility exists.  I also said that in places such as Africa or even South America they are more common than here, but I don't pay attention to specifics.  I likewise mentioned Timothy McVeigh and Saddam Hussein as two modern examples (and hinted at Osama bin Laden).
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[/quote]

And that is a nonsensical answer. Human dignity has to be applied equally to all. That is what John Paul II was getting at. Incidentally, that is what the Catechetical view is getting at. It doesn't answer the question. It skirts it.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:34 PM']Answer my question Soc

Is the Holy See wrong for calling for the end of the death penalty?
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[/quote]
Whether right or wrong, it's not defining moral doctrine here. That's the point Cardinal Ratzinger was making.

[Cam42]

[quote]Concerning the change in paragraph 2267 of the Catechism, which deals with the death penalty, one journalist asked if the revision reflected a shift in Church teaching on the death penalty since 1992. The cardinal {Ratzinger} said that the new text "does not categorically say that it [the legitimate imposition of the death penalty] is impossible, but it gives objective criteria which make it practically impossible for all of them to be met." He added: "This article follows what the encyclical Evangelium Vitae says in this regard."( Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger answered questions from journalists at the end of his presentation of the official Latin edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on September 9, 1997.)[/quote]

[Cam42]

I am not going into this again....have fun kiddies.....hot stuff, keep at it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:38 PM']Whether right or wrong, it's not defining moral doctrine here.  That's the point Cardinal Ratzinger was making.
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[/quote]

Abolishing the death penalty is not an issue of morality?


You are gonna stick with that one?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:36 PM']And that is a nonsensical answer.  Human dignity has to be applied equally to all.  That is what John Paul II was getting at.  Incidentally, that is what the Catechetical view is getting at.  It doesn't answer the question.  It skirts it.
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[/quote]

How? Those last three cases include someone whom (is this supposed to be whom?) would probably be more dangerous kept alive.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:42 PM']Abolishing the death penalty is not an issue of morality? 
You are gonna stick with that one?
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Obviously, it's an issue of morality. It is not defining dogma. If it was, there would be not "legitimate diversity of opinion" on this issue.

No one has ever explained how the quote I gave [b]is[/b] to be properly interpreted - I guess we're just not supposed to question Cam's authority.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:42 PM']Abolishing the death penalty is not an issue of morality? 
You are gonna stick with that one?
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[/quote]

Yep, until I'm dead. The application of such an act that is not intrinsically evil, because if you say it is, you have to answer to God, is not a necessity and igitur does not fall under faith and/or morals.

The criteria falls under morals. The act falls under morals.

[qfnol31]

hot stuff, will you please answer my question?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:47 PM']Obviously, it's an issue of morality.  It is not defining dogma.  If it was, there would be not "legitimate diversity of opinion" on this issue.


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[/quote]

And if
the Holy See has declared that it should be abolished
Ratzinger is a part of the Holy See
It is a matter of morals

Where's the problem? Why would you, Al and others argue against the Holy See?

[qfnol31]

Because it's not the Church.