The Post That You Have All Been Waiting For....

[PedroX]

Wow, I shudder to think how incoherent I apparrently was.

Anna, and MP,

Sorry if I was viewed as being too ecumenical (Ha, if you would call my friends, and tell them that it would be great!)

In my mind what I was trying to say was: If someone (for example Freaky Chic) were to study all of Catholicism and not see the Truth, they would most likely be "invincably ignorant". This is different from seeing the Truth, and deciding against it. It is also different from not looking for the Truth and just being plain ol' ignorant. Most Protestants fall into that last category. Also it is possible that many Protestants will be saved because of the Graces given to humanity through the Catholic Church. Again, this rests entirely in the hands of God and is possible only because The Church continues to be a conduit for Grace to a starving world.

Sorry if I caused consternation. Anna, I promise to be good from now on.

peace...

[Guest notthereyet]

If someone is truly ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ founded yet truly desire to follow God, then they're part of the Church, albeit imperfectly.  But if someone knows, or is at least in a position where they ought to know, that the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church and rejects it anyway, then they can't be saved.

Hey again guys, I pray once again that this post will bring us all closer to Christ.

But now i have a few questions for you all...I am a non-catholic just so you all know, however, my whole family is pretty much catholics, so I have been to the Catholic mass, i have learned what I can, however i have so much more to learn about it, and that's the whole reason i'm starting to do this posting thing, to learn more about the catholic church.

Okay, according to I believe Romans 10:9-10, pardon me if i'm a verse or two off, i don't have a Bible near me, one does not have to be a part of the Catholic church in order to be saved. I mean it says "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

I am definetly in a "position where they ought to know" that the Catholic church is Jesus' church, however i do not believe this. one sec guys, haha, just take a deep breath and let me finish. I do believe that anyone in the catholic church that, for that matter, anyone anywhere that does what Romans 10:9-10 says will recieve salvation. I am not the judge, i cannot say who will recieve salvation, however the Bible is clear in this matter, God is the judge of this, and according to romans 10:9-10 we get a clear picture of what is needed to "recieve salvation." So i do believe completely that Catholics can recieve salvation, just as much as non-catholics, however i do not believe that those who reject that the Catholic church is Jesus' church will not recieve salvation.

i mean romans 10:9-10 does not include the catch phrase that we must believe that the Catholic church is Christ's church, there's no small print, it's simple, if you confess that Christ is Lord, and believe it, then you will be saved

God bless you all

In Christ

[phatcatholic]

notthereyet,

in regards to salvation outside of the Catholic Church, the following article may be of help to you:

The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

i hope this helps. thank you for your honest question, and WELCOME to phatmass!

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

So i do believe completely that Catholics can recieve salvation, just as much as non-catholics, however i do not believe that those who reject that the Catholic church is Jesus' church will not recieve salvation.

notthereyet,

to an extent, we are in agreement on this. as the previous article i posted reveals, catholics fully believe that non-catholics can be saved. however, they are saved b/c of the imperfect unity they share w/ the Catholic Church. so, not all non-catholics are necessarily "outside of the Church."

see what i mean?

let me know if this is not clear........pax christi,

phatcatholic

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Okay, according to I believe Romans 10:9-10, pardon me if i'm a verse or two off, i don't have a Bible near me, one does not have to be a part of the Catholic church in order to be saved. I mean it says "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

notthereyet, Pax Christi. Alot of protestants like to take one verse and base their lives on it, or even create a whole new church from it. But there is alot more to it besides professing a faith in Christ.

What do you suppose would happen, if you profess your faith in Christ but yet, dont eat the flesh of the Son of Man?

For in John 6:54 Jesus said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life"

so, you profess your faith, but dont eat the flesh, you dont have eternal life right? Dont you think they go together, its an all or nothing deal?

If you profess your faith in Christ thats good, but thats not all thats needed. If you profess your faith in Christ AND eat His flesh and Drink His blood, you will have eternal life. Cant cancel one without canceling another. Only in the Catholic Church can you have both.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[[jas]]

Alot of protestants like to take one verse and base their lives on it, or even create a whole new church from it.

For in John 6:54 Jesus said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life"

Talk about taking one verse and basing your church, or your life, on it.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

i wasnt taking that one verse and basing my life on it, I was simply showing this as an example that you cannot take one verse and live off it. you have to take everything that is said and go by it.

Since God doesnt lie, he said you must profess your faith in Him.

But he also said that you have to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life.

He also gave the keys to Heaven to Peter and gave Peter the Authority to loose or bind here on earth.

He also told Peter to tend Christs Sheep and Feed His Sheep.

It is also written that the Office of Apostles are to be passed on. Apostolic Authority.

what Church can be shown to follow all these? [jas] you seem to be a genius why not answer this for us huh?

you missed what I was saying, probably on purpose.

[[jas]]

It is also written that the Office of Apostles are to be passed on. Apostolic Authority.

Where?

Serious question.

And not interpretation from a couple of stories somewhere, where does it directly say that?

[MC Just]

Jas, for a better understanding of Apostolic Authority, read this

Yeshuas light

The people of God have always had a earthly leader, Jesus made this clear when he gave peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, also known as the kingdom of God on earth. The protestant rebellion against the Churches authority echoes that of the rebellion of Korah (Numbers 16 1-11)

Yes Jesus apointed Peter leader of the Flock, along with the Apostles, The Bishops.

"Feed my Sheep" "Feed my Lambs" This is a Shepherd's Job. The Hebrew Catholics have a clear understanding of this. The office and Authority of the Pope and Bishops, echoe that of (Isiaiah 22: 19-23) "He shall be a father(papa, pope) to the inhabitants of jerusalem" Jesus instituted this office, when he built his Church and gave Peter the Authority. The Catholic Church is a Continuation and Fullfillment of Judaism, the hebrews who become Catholic recognize the fullfilllment. Also, the True Presence of Christ which we believe dwells in every tabernacle in every Catholic parish across the world, is the fullfillment of "Shekinah" in the Old Law, except now it's not restricted to the Priests, we can all share in the Presence of Shekinah in the Holy Eucharist. Also, it fullfilles the Old Testament Scriptures on the Skekinah (Presence of God)I'm not sure if you knew any of this but the Book of Revelation is Eucharistic and it was written in "Kabballah language" The Catholic Churches teaching on the Eucharist is the fullfillment of Kabballah. Kabballah was part of Jewish "Oral Tradition" Note: The Catholic church has "sacred tradition" which is also "Oral Tradition" which is why the scriptures say "not everything Jesus taught and did was written down" (john 20:30; 21:25) "I do not think the world would contain the books that would be written" Even in Judaism, Oral Tradition and Scripture were side by side, just as it is in Catholicism. Going by Bible Alone, leaves out the un-written oral tradition which is also very important.

God Bless you I will be praying for you brother.

Edited December 23, 2003 by MC Just

[MC Just]

I wrote all that on my own, so Catholic smarty pantaloons, if I am wrong in anyway please correct me, i'm just explaining what Ive been learning from Hebrew Catholics, who are Faithful to the Magesterium.

[cmotherofpirl]

Okay, according to I believe Romans 10:9-10, pardon me if i'm a verse or two off, i don't have a Bible near me, one does not have to be a part of the Catholic church in order to be saved. I mean it says "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

It also says you must be born of the water and the Spirit( Jesus talking to Nichodemus) , so baptism is a requirement as well.

WE don't take one verse and base everythnig on it either. But verses plus 2000 years of constant and consistant teaching and practice going back to the Apostles is the basis for the Christian faith.