Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexei II

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

It seems like Alexei II is always trying to foil Vatican efforts toward the Orthodox Churches. Today he cancelled a meeting with a Vatican Official and gave no real excuse.

[Guest JeffCR07]

We should pray for reunion, pray that he had good reason to cancel, and, if he did not, pray in filial love for him. Moreover, we should accept whatever slights others might give us with humble hearts, and never allow things like this to harden us or forsake our efforts.

[DAF]

It's difficult for me to be humble towards the Orthodox Churches. They've become more nationalist than Christian institutions, especially the Russian Orthodox Church. They seem to be very concerned with snubbing Latin rite Catholics. Perhaps I'm wrong but that's how I've seen it. Perhaps I'm being a sort of Latin Rite Naitonalist, but it's better than being an Orthodox one.

[rkwright]

I know a good number of very nice Orthodox Christians, but this guy is just a jerk in my opinion. As long as he is leader of the Russian Church there is NO hope for reunion. He snubbed JPII off a few times and it doesn't surprise me that he still won't meet.

In general I feel that reunion with the Orthodox Christians would be extremely difficult. Talking to the local Greek Orthodox Priest, he said reunion would be simple; The Pope just needs to renounce his authority and any teachings post split. Now thats a good way of thinking of looking at it all...

[rkwright]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Nov 29 2005, 08:34 PM']We should pray for reunion, pray that he had good reason to cancel, and, if he did not, pray in filial love for him. Moreover, we should accept whatever slights others might give us with humble hearts, and never allow things like this to harden us or forsake our efforts.
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thats the optimistic approach!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 29 2005, 08:00 PM']thats the optimistic approach! 
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Not only is it "optimistic" but in my mind, it is the only approach that embraces charity. We should be working on our hands and knees in love for this reunification. Anything less would be an affront to the Lord who washed the feet of his disciples in the same manner.

It is easy to become angry and bitter, but it is Catholic to be merciful, faithful, hopeful, and charitable.

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yea, I work with protestant/catholic relations. Dealing with G.O. is tough and Ive had some ill experiences there

[rkwright]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Nov 30 2005, 05:49 PM']yea, I work with protestant/catholic relations. Dealing with G.O. is tough and Ive had some ill experiences there
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G.O. is greek Orthodox I assume? or some protestant group you work with?

I think this is all very sad, I think both churches have a lot to offer... Eastern mysticism is very interesting! I think its sad they reject scholasticism, and have a real tendency of mutual exclusivity towards Catholic teaching and vice versa.

[toledo_jesus]

well, if you were the big boss of millions of the faithful, you wouldn't want to give that up either would you?

In my opinion, a fair amount of Orthodox pride is the only thing keeping us from reconciling.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 30 2005, 08:07 PM']G.O. is greek Orthodox I assume? or some protestant group you work with?

I think this is all very sad, I think both churches have a lot to offer... Eastern mysticism is very interesting!  I think its sad they reject scholasticism, and have a real tendency of mutual exclusivity towards Catholic teaching and vice versa.
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Have you explored the traditions of the Eastern Rites of the [i]Catholic[/i] Church? The difference is obedience to the papacy. I wish Apotheoun were around for input...

[Myles Domini]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm"]Catholic Rites and Churches[/url]

The Catholic Church is not comprised of the the Latin Church alone. Anyone who has been watching Catholic Compass on EWTN over the past two weeks would've seen evidence of this on the program's 'Ukranian Catholic University' and 'Emerging from the Catacombs'. As the URL that heads this post illustrates whilst Rome is the centre of unity of the Catholica it is the centre of a huge and diverse body, which is far from being uniform in all quarters. Eastern Catholicism might not be large but it is alive and well and is always an option for a Roman Catholic who feels drawn East.

The Eastern Catholics do not uniformly reject scholastic theology but its a Western way of looking at the Sacred Mysteries and given that they have their own patrimony, heritage, fathers and doctors we shouldn't expect them to adopt everything Occidental. We in the West dont tend to read their later theological giants like St Nicholas Cabasilas and it was a by product of 20th century ressourcement that their ideas began to influence the Roman Church. Thus we should not expect Eastern Christians--including Eastern Catholics--to show great interest in scholastics. Their cultural milleu gives them a different angle on things that scholastic language doesn't exactly suit (and we would probably say much the same thing about the writings of their mediaeval greats like Gregory of Cyprus).

However, the two ways aren't completely antithetical and I agree that some Easterners overemphasise our differences. A good title that highlights this is [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195124367/qid=1133400814/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-3486837-4655347?n=507846&s=books&v=glance"]The Ground of Union: Deification in Aquinas and Palamas by A.N. Williams[/url].

INXC
Myles

PS) Anyone interested in Eastern Catholicism can feel free to give me a PM. I'm not an Eastern Catholic but this term at University I've been studying 'the History and Theology of the Church in the Byzantine Empire 1000-1453' so I have the tools to point you around.

[rkwright]

[quote name='thedude' date='Nov 30 2005, 08:12 PM']Have you explored the traditions of the Eastern Rites of the [i]Catholic[/i] Church?  The difference is obedience to the papacy.  I wish Apotheoun were around for input...
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yes there is a maronite rite church about 2 hours from here. Personally I'm more fond of the Latin Rite in the Mass (I've been to a Greek Orthodox Liturgy). It's cool, but I find the Trinedintine (sp?) Mass more appealing (but its also a 2 hour drive, and waking up at 530 every sunday to drive 2 hours gets old and expensive).

I think what I meant was the lack of Eastern Influence, or should I say knowledge, in the Western Church. They have something to offer, that even the Orthodox while not in Communion with Rome, can be beneficial and a new way of looking at things.

Again thats with a disclaimer, most of you posting on this are well aware of the Eastern Fathers... but I would venture to say many Catholics that are at least familar with Catholic teachings are not too aware of the Eastern Fathers.

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[quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 29 2005, 08:57 PM']In general I feel that reunion with the Orthodox Christians would be extremely difficult.  Talking to the local Greek Orthodox Priest, he said reunion would be simple; The Pope just needs to renounce his authority and any teachings post split.  Now thats a good way of thinking of looking at it all... 
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you know how you feel when you read this?..


















that is how most protestants feel when we tell them to put down their arms and return with their tale between their legfs. We must look to unity, the joining of the gifts the spirit has blessed to all believers

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eastern fathers have killer pneumatology

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 1 2005, 01:03 AM']you know how you feel when you read this?..
that is how most protestants feel when we tell them to put down their arms and return with their tale between their legfs. We must look to unity, the joining of the gifts the spirit has blessed to all believers
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Which is fine as long is its under the authority of the Holy Father and Magisterium.

[Era Might]

I'll throw in my requisite plug for John Paul II's Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint". It's a truly great Encyclical, and really sets the standard for the Church's ecumenical vision going forward. I really love this Encyclical. I think it's my favorite of all of John Paul's documents, excepting his works on Evangelization.

[quote]Taking up an idea expressed by Pope John XXIII at the opening of the Council, the Decree on Ecumenism mentions the way of formulating doctrine as one of the elements of a continuing reform. Here it is not a question of altering the deposit of faith, changing the meaning of dogmas, eliminating essential words from them, accommodating truth to the preferences of a particular age, or suppressing certain articles of the Creed under the false pretext that they are no longer understood today. The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety. In matters of faith, compromise is in contradiction with God who is Truth. In the Body of Christ, "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6), who could consider legitimate a reconciliation brought about at the expense of the truth? The Council's Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae attributes to human dignity the quest for truth, "especially in what concerns God and his Church", and adherence to truth's demands. A "being together" which betrayed the truth would thus be opposed both to the nature of God who offers his communion and to the need for truth found in the depths of every human heart.[/quote]

Edited December 5, 2005 by Era Might

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amen...

I dont see unity as denying the tradition and the theology protestants have. They have a thriving faith, we should not ignore that. Ut Unum sint speaks in this The problem most protestants see is that "return to authority of the magistirum" means that they lose what they know in their faith, abandon the very thing that brought them to God and start anew in catholicism. I think this is wrong.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:28 AM']amen...

I dont see unity as denying the tradition and the theology protestants have. They have a thriving faith, we should not ignore that. Ut Unum sint speaks in this The problem most protestants see is that "return to authority of the magistirum" means that they lose what they know in their faith, abandon the very thing that brought them to God and start anew in catholicism. I think this is wrong.
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Well, they do, to an extent. Two contrary propositions cannot coexist. The Eucharist cannot transubstantiate and consubstantiate. It's one or the other. But while particular points of doctrine require renunciation, the overall fulfillment is still positive. As Pope Pius XII said, the Church never held the doctrine of the pagans in contempt, but "purified it from all error and crowned it with Christian wisdom." The same is true of Protestantism.

But I do think that this legitimate drawing upon their Protestant heritage can have a negative dimension. A convert comes to learn, above all else, as Cardinal Newman, the esteemed Anglican convert, once exhorted:

[quote]Conversion, by its very name, implies a radical change of heart. It implies that one’s priorities have been radically reoriented, however much continuity one may experience. It requires a radical humility toward the tradition one is accepting. That is not to say that the convert has nothing to offer from her former tradition–but all such offerings must be made humbly and tentatively, subject to the new rules by which one is playing. This requires an act of ultimate trust in the integrity of the tradition to which one is converting.[/quote]

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I agree theology needs to be hammered and "come to a better understanding" as JPII writes. But what I am speaking of more comes to the pratices that protestants use. Doctrine will come together thru dialogue that is fine. But a common accepting over the practices of each other is more needed. Freedoms within worship is one of the big things

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ecumenism is not conversion in the sense of protestants all reverting back, ecumenism as sited in Ut Unum Sint is conversion of the hearts on BOTH SIDES coming together to be the unified church.