Not meant as a debate

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Dec 11 2005, 01:41 AM']from the [b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm"]New Advent article[/url][/b] entitled "Gift of Tongues", we read:[list]In post-Biblical times St. Irenaeus tells us that "many" of his contemporaries were heard "speaking through the Spirit in all kinds (pantodapais) of tongues" ("Contra haer.", V, vii; Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", V, vii). St. Francis Xavier is said to have preached in tongues unknown to him and St. Vincent Ferrer while using his native tongue was understood in others. From this last phenomenon Biblical glossolaly differs in being what St. Gregory Nazianzen points out as a marvel of speaking and not of hearing. Exegetes observe too that it was never used for preaching, although Sts. Augustine and Thomas seem to have overlooked this detail.

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I'm specifically refering to 'charsmatic tongues', not the commonly accepted 'tongues of Acts 2'. Tongues in which neither the person speaking, nor anyone else knows what is being said. Often refered to as 'angelic tongues' or 'tongues of the Holy Spirit'.

[DAF]

I'm with Toledo_Jesus. I think alot of, if not most/all people these days are faking it.
Of course my comment probably doesn't really help with your question...

[journeyman]

Isn't it necessary that someone understand for the gift (or charism) of tongues to be a gift from God? The English-only-speaker who stands up and starts speaking in whatever? The speakers who think they are using their native language, but are heard and understood by others who don't speak that language. (was that a gift of listening or a gift of speaking?)

tongues (in the Acts/Pentecost sense of the word) was [b]used and useful [/b] in evangelization. What is the use of words that aren't understood by anyone present?

(presumption that this is not being taped and will not be seen in 200 years by visiting space aliens, who may wonder how someone could speak their language 200 years before they got here to teach it to us)

[jezic]

^lol

I am not sure what to think about it. I always only thought that the "tongues of Acts 2" were the only ones.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jezic' date='Dec 12 2005, 08:35 PM']^lol

I am not sure what to think about it. I always only thought that the "tongues of Acts 2" were the only ones.
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From what I understand the person 'praying in tongues' does not have the 'words' to pray in our language' so they submit themselves to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit prays words for them. I am however not a charasmatic, so PLEASE do not take my word for it, I am repeating what I have been told by charasmatic friends and what I have read from charasmatic literature.

[JP2Iloveyou]

A couple of things...this movement is supported by the Church. Read Dominum Vivificantem. Also, most of the true charismatics that I know do not go around bragging about it. If you met them on the street, you'd never know that they could speak in tongues or prophesy, or any of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. Given that the saints are advanced in the virtue of humility, I would suspect that you'd be hard pressed to find a saint that wrote about his or her charismatic gifts.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Dec 13 2005, 09:27 AM']A couple of things...this movement is supported by the Church.  Read Dominum Vivificantem.  Also, most of the true charismatics that I know do not go around bragging about it.  If you met them on the street, you'd never know that they could speak in tongues or prophesy, or any of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Given that the saints are advanced in the virtue of humility, I would suspect that you'd be hard pressed to find a saint that wrote about his or her charismatic gifts.
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You are obviously behind on the conversation, but that's okay. The idea of message boards seems to repeat entire lines of thought every few weeks. I've read everything there is (that I know of) on the charasmatic movement. I go to FUS - so I am completely immersed in the movement. Teresa is in the Jr. High version of LifeTeen. Some of my closest friends are as charasmatic as you can get. I go to charasmatic masses at times, and have even been to a FOP. I've even been totally open to accepting certian aspects of charasmatic spirituality as legit, if I can be given adequate proof [meaning some type of meaningful grounding in scripture or tradition]. Sadly, it is entirely lacking. No one, certianly least of all myself, is attacking whether or not the Catholic Church allows the movement to exist, or even if a late Pope has given his blessing. Many people are however very concerned about certian things that take place in the charasmatic spirituality. I've started various threads over time looking for different ways in which some acceptance could be gained for charasmatic spirituality, including this one. I'm not your enemy here.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Brother Adam

[JP2Iloveyou]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 13 2005, 09:35 AM']I'm not your enemy here.
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Nor am I yours.

[Sirklawd]

Hey all, Ive seen a ton of charasmatics. It never like.. clicked with me. But my stance on it was basically "hey, whatever works for you"

but ya, didnt the apostles speak in toungues in the upper room on penticost?

anyway, someoen posted above. what is the exact purpose for someone to pray over someone else in hopes that the prayed-over person recieve the gift of toungues. Like.. why do that? From what I understand of it, it doesn't seem to be a necessity, and to pray for it seems to undermine the supposed reason for it (which, like brother adam, ive been taught is just something that happens when you run out of words to worship Jesus with).

Praying for it is like..completely backwards logic. Its seems to turn it into a status symbol. something you would then run to your friends and be like "I spoke in toungues!!!"...

...ive seen people do this

ps: this isnt targeting anyone but that priest in that story.

[Aloysius]

the Apostles didn't speak in tongues in the upper room. they spoke in tongues when they went and talked to all the people who were in Jerusalem from many foreign lands.

[scardella]

Hrm...
I want to ask a few questions...if it's been accepted by the Church, does it necessarily matter whether those specific phenomena have been observed historically? Perhaps I have a broader understanding of the charismatic gifts, but the idea is that they are gifts for the building up of the Church.

There have been all sorts of odd phenomena in the past... ecstasies, which may be related to being "Slain in the Spirit"; levitation; stigmata; people living entirely on the Eucharist; healings; martyrs laughing at their torturers; bilocation; preaching to animals; people being regarded as utter geniuses; etc.

I think the real evaluations are: do these gifts (or so-called gifts) actually serve to build up the Church, or are they a hindrance to true worship? Are they for the building up of the Church, or are they personal in nature? Here, we are not talking about any way it might be abused... Are they fundamentally conducive to the Catholic Church or not?

I would contend, that "prayer tongues" or "personal tongues" is not a charismatic gift, per se. It seems more a personal gift for the building up of self, which is supported by Scripture somewhere... In that sense, I could easily see why a saint might not speak about it, because it is part of something especially between himself and God.

I would also like to throw out a counter-challenge, if I may. Can anyone provide evidence that tongues or being slain in the Spirit is problematic? (Am I just forgetting something that's been already said?)

[scardella]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:48 AM']I'm specifically refering to 'charsmatic tongues', not the commonly accepted 'tongues of Acts 2'. Tongues in which neither the person speaking, nor anyone else knows what is being said. Often refered to as 'angelic tongues' or 'tongues of the Holy Spirit'.
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In another thread, I think I addressed the person speaking part...

I'd have to go look up exactly what I had said, but I remember it being pretty neat. It was something about it expressing what our words are inadequate for. So, you do really know what you're expressing, it's just the how that's kinda mysterious. I've heard some testimony that sort of backs this up... The person in question had been praying out loud (praises, etc.) and at some point, somebody mentioned to them that they were praying in tongues, and they had no idea that they were. As far as they knew, they were simply praying. I've heard that kind of story a number of times, but I don't think I could give you numbers.