scripture vs philosophy

[N/A Gone]

im sorry bro, but not to be a pain, this still assumes we are determined. Because it isnt a matter of "god" lacking, rather that we have not determined what we will do yet. Thus, it isnt there to be known. No matter what view of time you hold to.

sorry im such a pain on this

[Aloysius]

within time, yes we haven't decided yet. and nothing determines our actions except our will. but outside of time, all those things that our will has and will determine can be seen. to God, who exists outside of time, a thousand years is like a single day. He sees all moments at once. thus He can see everything that our will has done and will do, and it doesn't alter the fact that it is our will doing it.

See, I even used scripture : :

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 21 2005, 09:42 AM']im sorry bro, but not to be a pain, this still assumes we are determined. Because it isnt a matter of "god" lacking, rather that we have not determined what we will do yet. Thus, it isnt there to be known. No matter what view of time you hold to.

sorry im such a pain on this
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[/quote]

You're not a pain! Its good that you are asking these questions!

Again, you are still equivocating between two meanings of "determined." On the one hand, there is causal determination, and on the other hand, there is the determination that exists because something is the case (non-causal).

Something may be the case, like, for example, it may be the case that God knows that I will not go to the mall tomorrow (I don't need to buy anymore presents), and in this respect, my going to the mall is determined. But there is nothing that [i]causes[/i] me not to go to the mall tomorrow - I am not forced by anything - and so in this respect, I am not determined.

Thus, human free will can exist (because the only thing that causes me not to go to the mall tomorrow is my own free will) while at the same time the future is determined (because God knows that I am not going to the mall tomorrow).

In essence, God doesn't know the future because He magically sees some mysterious power that causes me to will what I will in the future, but rather, He knows the future because He sees what I am doing in the future in exactly the same way that He sees what I am doing in the present (and [i]no one[/i] would say that I have no free will in the present just because God knows what I am going right now!).

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Carolou]

I don't know but my oldest brother went to a catholic college(Thomas Moore) and majored in philosophy.

That's my contribution to this thread, lol.

[zdog042]

Rev, you just can't get away from the whole "God-in-time" thing. Can God know the future and still not predestine (<--spelling?) us? Good question. :

I like Philosophy. I'm a philosopher through and through. And, suprisingly enough, I don't use the bible. I come from a church background that was sola scriptura, but never put any stock in it because I could see the flaws in it from a young age.

But, I agree with some people on here, debating with Catholics is completely different from debating with Protestants. Protestants will typically use lots of scripture to back up their point, whereas Catholics tend to use lots of Church Fathers/Church Documents/etc. Granted, the documents are based on scripture and coincide with the teachings therein, but I've noticed the same thing, that Protestants just use more scripture references than Catholics.

Also, you should move your "God experiences time as a single now" -vs- "God sees time as an web" argument to another thread to make it easier for the people that hide on the side to watch (like me ) to follow the debate. Just an idea - I like listening to this topic of debate and would like to be able to follow it easier.