College Education

[Socrates]

Since we've recently had debates about homeschooling and boarding school . .

The question is:
What tends to produce the strongest Catholics:
Colleges with a strongly Catholic identity and orthodox Catholic teaching (such as Christendom, FUS, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.)?
or secular or largely secularized colleges (often largely at odds with the Catholic Faith)?

(This question is basically aimed at Catholics. And please don't turn it into an argument about which Catholic school is best or "most Catholic")

[qfnol31]

I can only speak for my own, but I know many Catholics who have turned out stronger because of it.

Now I also know people from aTm who are also very strong Catholics.

[philothea]

Ordinary universities seem like such a trap if you're not really, really strong already. Soooo many temptations, and so many people who care about nothing but having a good time.



Catholic college, definitely.

[Socrates]

This thread was inspired by some posts in the past to the effect that Catholics needed to go to a school where they would be taught opposing viewpoints, or that going to "conservative" Catholic colleges breeds "intellectual stagnation" and the like.

Personally, I think the facts attest otherwise.

[Socrates]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 20 2005, 06:21 PM']I can only speak for my own, but I know many Catholics who have turned out stronger because of it.

Now I also know people from aTm who are also very strong Catholics.


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Stronger because of what?

Context, please!

[qfnol31]

Stronger because of the education/attending the school.

I guess I forgot to mention I go to the University of Dallas (a Catholic school). It's got a very strong education and religious formation is not lacking.

Anyways, I've known quite a few to go in as an average Catholic and finish (or rather are currently) much stronger Catholics.


What do you mean by strongly secular? If you mean rigor or something, then I can't really answer. Our's is a very rigorous set of studies. (I think we should be Ivy League...: But now I'm off topic). Pretty much, could you clarify if you mean in their studies or just secular in that they are not affiliated?

[Cam42]

As a graduate of the very first Catholic Studies program in the US, I can tell you that a Catholic college is very important.

One of the things that should not be taken away though is the liberal aspect of college. One of the reasons that I am so strong in my faith and one of the reasons that I am such a strong debater is that I had to fight for my Catholic identity.

While the intention was not to shake my faith, I do believe that the college that I went to was into AmChurch at the time that I was there. That is one of the reasons that the Catholic Studies program was created; to bring an orthodox Catholic viewpoint back to the college.

With all that being said, the liberal aspect forces one to question his role within the Church. It makes it much easier to understand orthodoxy and it makes it easier to defend.

Just my thoughts.

[Socrates]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 20 2005, 06:31 PM']Stronger because of the education/attending the school.

I guess I forgot to mention I go to the University of Dallas (a Catholic school).  It's got a very strong education and religious formation is not lacking.

Anyways, I've known quite a few to go in as an average Catholic and finish (or rather are currently) much stronger Catholics.
What do you mean by strongly secular?  If you mean rigor or something, then I can't really answer.  Our's is a very rigorous set of studies.  (I think we should be Ivy League...:  But now I'm off topic).  Pretty much, could you clarify if you mean in their studies or just secular in that they are not affiliated?
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I never used the phrase "strongly secular."

By "secular" I am referring to both secular colleges, and colleges where the true Catholic teaching is not largely found.

[qfnol31]

Sorry, I meant largely secular.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 20 2005, 06:34 PM']As a graduate of the very first Catholic Studies program in the US, I can tell you that a Catholic college is very important.

One of the things that should not be taken away though is the liberal aspect of college.  One of the reasons that I am so strong in my faith and one of the reasons that I am such a strong debater is that I had to fight for my Catholic identity.

While the intention was not to shake my faith, I do believe that the college that I went to was into AmChurch at the time that I was there.  That is one of the reasons that the Catholic Studies program was created; to bring an orthodox Catholic viewpoint back to the college.

With all that being said, the liberal aspect forces one to question his role within the Church.  It makes it much easier to understand orthodoxy and it makes it easier to defend.

Just my thoughts.
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So do you think it better to go to a college where there is a lot of liberal heterodox teaching?

This only really seems to work for people who go in already very strong in their faith. If you look at the overwhelming statistics of those who lose their faith after attending liberal "Catholic" colleges . . .

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 20 2005, 07:34 PM']As a graduate of the very first Catholic Studies program in the US, I can tell you that a Catholic college is very important.
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woah, where at? I am debating between 2 programs right now..a catholic studies one, and a dogmatic theology one. The school claims to have one of the first catholic studies programs in the world. its cool.

[Colleen]

I think that ideally, a strong Catholic college is best. As for myself, I would have loved to attend one. My college is neither Catholic nor conservative, but I will say that I have had some very good professors (who either taught or studied at strong Catholic colleges previously).

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 07:25 PM']This thread was inspired by some posts in the past to the effect that Catholics needed to go to a school where they would be taught opposing viewpoints, or that going to "conservative" Catholic colleges breeds "intellectual stagnation" and the like.

Personally, I think the facts attest otherwise.
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On the contrary, I think that a solid, strong Catholic education "breeds" great thinkers. At least that's what I've seen from Catholic colleges like the University of Dallas. I think there is more open-mindedness at that particular school than at my school, which tends to have very liberal professors.

I will say, though, that I have learned a lot from my professors, even the liberal ones! It is difficult at times, especially when they don't share your faith or your understanding of truth (or even your understanding of reality at times ), but once you start to understand where they're coming from and how to speak their language, you can actually learn a lot about, well, the world and why some people act and think the way they do.

But if I had a choice, I would definitely go to a good, Catholic school with a solid curriculum. I've had to put up with a great deal of (often subtle) anti-Catholic remarks and teachings at school, and at times it has been challenging to my faith. I've learned from those experiences, but personally, I wouldn't really recommend someone go to a school like mine if he is not strong in his faith.

Catholic universities with orthodox curricula and professors rock, and I would say they are the best. But they are few and far between. There is a great need for good Catholic professors in this country.

[morostheos]

I voted that in general, Catholic colleges are best for Catholic students. That being said, however, I also think it is important to recognize that strong Catholic colleges are certainly not the best for all Catholic students. I went to a completely secular college and it strengthened my faith immensely. Also, I think that often completely secular colleges are a better environment than nominal/heterodox Catholic colleges.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:43 PM']So do you think it better to go to a college where there is a lot of liberal heterodox teaching?

This only really seems to work for people who go in already very strong in their faith.  If you look at the overwhelming statistics of those who lose their faith after attending liberal "Catholic" colleges . . .
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No, I didn't say anything about heterodoxy. What I said was liberal. There is a difference. Being able to defend against liberal thought is totally different than defending against heterodox thought.

The college I went to was liberal, but it was not heterodox. Liberal thinking forces one to think through conservatism, into a more orthodox understanding of the faith.

If you always equate liberalism with heterodoxy, you will find yourself painted into a corner. Read John Henry Cardinal Newman. In order to come to the orthodox view that he eventually came to, he was very liberal in his thought, however, as he was becoming Catholic, he moved through conservatism into orthodoxy.

A strong Catholic University doesn't have to be conservative, it has to be orthodox. Liberalism can find a place, if it is authentic and serving the greater good.

Don't get caught in the liberal=heterodox trap. It is false and it is an inauthentic viewpoint.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:44 PM']woah, where at? I am debating between 2 programs right now..a catholic studies one, and a dogmatic theology one. The school claims to have one of the first catholic studies programs in the world. its cool.
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I graduated from the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, MN.

[rkwright]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 20 2005, 05:21 PM']I can only speak for my own, but I know many Catholics who have turned out stronger because of it.

Now I also know people from aTm who are also very strong Catholics.


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WHOOP! Texas A&M has one of the strongest parish communities I have ever been around. Its a large public school (45,000) so it has so many opportunities but its so conservative that there are many many religious organizations on campus. I do something with the church there nearly every day....

for a public school I was extremely surprised at how much religion plays a part in the daily life of the students!

of course A&M focus is on argiculture and engineering so if you're looking for a liberal arts program I dunno...I would choose a smaller Catholic school for that.

And being in the south it will test your faith! You better be ready to defend it becuase there are many protestants that love to talk religion! I had a friend that was handed a million dollar bill tract maybe 2 weeks ago, someone asking him the 10 commandments and which ones he had broken..

Edited December 21, 2005 by rkwright

[Cathurian]

I'm applying to St. Thomas Aquinas :

[Colleen]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:47 PM']No, I didn't say anything about heterodoxy.  What I said was liberal.  There is a difference.  Being able to defend against liberal thought is totally different than defending against heterodox thought.

The college I went to was liberal, but it was not heterodox.  Liberal thinking forces one to think through conservatism, into a more orthodox understanding of the faith.

If you always equate liberalism with heterodoxy, you will find yourself painted into a corner.  Read John Henry Cardinal Newman.  In order to come to the orthodox view that he eventually came to, he was very liberal in his thought, however, as he was becoming Catholic, he moved through conservatism into orthodoxy.

A strong Catholic University doesn't have to be conservative, it has to be orthodox.  Liberalism can find a place, if it is authentic and serving the greater good.

Don't get caught in the liberal=heterodox trap.  It is false and it is an inauthentic viewpoint.
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Just curious, how do you define liberal (at least in this particular context)?

[TheoGrad07]

I vote for a university with a strong Catholic identity. Like Q, I go to University of Dallas -- I love it!

I'm sure there's a lot to learn from the challenges one faces at a secular university -- but I think one gets a better formation in Catholic theology, a better intellectual understanding of one's Faith, at a university with a strong, orthodox Catholic identity.

We do so much growing during our years at university, I think it's important that growing takes place in a strongly orthodox Catholic environment. Our thinking matures and changes ... what is more important than that our understanding of our Faith is nurtured? I don't think most high school graduates have the intellectual training and developement to understand and defend the Faith in the way a graduate of a Catholic university has -- and I don't think continual "combat" (subtle or in-your-face) is the best training. Training in intellectual and theological thinking, such as is given here at UD, is a great advantage for living and defending the Faith in the way one will have to.

I've gained a much deeper knowledge, understanding, and appreciation of the Faith here at UD. My thinking has changed so much ... and thanks to the awesome UD professors, my understanding of the Church and the Faith has grown, too.

I love UD and UD profs! :

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 20 2005, 07:47 PM']No, I didn't say anything about heterodoxy.  What I said was liberal.  There is a difference.  Being able to defend against liberal thought is totally different than defending against heterodox thought.

The college I went to was liberal, but it was not heterodox.  Liberal thinking forces one to think through conservatism, into a more orthodox understanding of the faith.

If you always equate liberalism with heterodoxy, you will find yourself painted into a corner.  Read John Henry Cardinal Newman.  In order to come to the orthodox view that he eventually came to, he was very liberal in his thought, however, as he was becoming Catholic, he moved through conservatism into orthodoxy.

A strong Catholic University doesn't have to be conservative, it has to be orthodox.  Liberalism can find a place, if it is authentic and serving the greater good.

Don't get caught in the liberal=heterodox trap.  It is false and it is an inauthentic viewpoint.
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When "liberal" is used to refer to Catholics, it is often used to mean "heterodox." For instance, when one says "liberal Catholics," it is often taken to mean those who reject the Church's teaching on various moral and doctrinal matters. That's more what I was thinking here.

[quote]One of the things that should not be taken away though is the liberal aspect of college.  One of the reasons that I am so strong in my faith and one of the reasons that I am such a strong debater is that I had to fight for my Catholic identity.[/quote]
This is what becomes unclear - you seem to imply here that liberalism is something that has to be fought against to maintain a Catholic identity.

And you also seem to imply that the college should be "liberal" (whatever you mean by that), as though a college being conservative makes the educational experience somehow inferior.