College Education

[philothea]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:40 PM']When "liberal" is used to refer to Catholics, it is often used to mean "heterodox."  For instance, when one says "liberal Catholics," it is often taken to mean those who reject the Church's teaching on various moral and doctrinal matters.  That's more what I was thinking here.
This is what becomes unclear - you seem to imply here that liberalism is something that has to be fought against to maintain a Catholic identity.

And you also seem to imply that the college should be "liberal" (whatever you mean by that), as though a college being conservative makes the educational experience somehow inferior.
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When "liberal" is used in terms of education, it means studying a wide array of subjects. Frex, "Liberal Arts" is not about politics at all.

[Socrates]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:50 PM']When "liberal" is used in terms of education, it means studying a wide array of subjects.  Frex, "Liberal Arts" is not about politics at all.
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I went to a liberal arts college and am well aware of what this means. While it was a liberal arts college, it was very conservative.

It's just that in the current vernacular, when one says a school is "liberal," it usually means in the current political/religious/cultural sense of the word.

[qfnol31]

[quote]I love UD and UD profs! :[/quote]

What about people like me or my roommates!? That's it, no more tea or alcohol for you!

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 09:58 PM']I went to a liberal arts college and am well aware of what this means.  While it was a liberal arts college, it was very conservative.

It's just that in the current vernacular, when one says a school is "liberal" it usually means in the current political/religious/cultural sense of the word.
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I go to a liberal arts college as well. I think that that's a better term to use than simply [i]liberal[/i].

Since we're on the subject, I think that liberal arts are extremely important.

My doctor and I got into a discussion the other day on this and he wishes he had studied philosophy in college before his med school days. I thought it was great!

[TheoGrad07]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 20 2005, 09:03 PM']What about people like me or my roommates!?  That's it, no more tea or alcohol for you! 
I go to a liberal arts college as well.  I think that that's a better term to use than simply [i]liberal[/i].

Since we're on the subject, I think that liberal arts are extremely important.

  My doctor and I got into a discussion the other day on this and he wishes he had studied philosophy in college before his med school days.  I thought it was great! 
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Don't yell at me, Zach ... I love you too, and your roommates!

Oh yeah! All for liberal arts! I don't know how else I could learn to think without them ... Everything we think in our post-modern society is someway connected to everything that's come before ... it's so much fun getting to know it all! Or trying to get to know some of it ... :

[lifescanticle]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 07:16 PM']Since we've recently had debates about homeschooling and boarding school . .

The question is:
What tends to produce the strongest Catholics:
Colleges with a strongly Catholic identity and orthodox Catholic teaching (such as Christendom, FUS, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.)?
or secular or largely secularized colleges (often largely at odds with the Catholic Faith)?

(This question is basically aimed at Catholics.  And please don't turn it into an argument about which Catholic school is best or "most Catholic")
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I would think that attending a school that has a strong Catholic identity would produce a stronger Catholic. The presence of the Eucharist on campus and the ready available religious would be very supportive to those students who torn between secular society and Catholism

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 06:25 PM']This thread was inspired by some posts in the past to the effect that Catholics needed to go to a school where they would be taught opposing viewpoints, or that going to "conservative" Catholic colleges breeds "intellectual stagnation" and the like.

Personally, I think the facts attest otherwise.
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An orthodox Catholic College would not produce intellectual stagnation, because the material would hopefuly be presented in a fair light.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:48 PM']I graduated from the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, MN.
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Thats the EXACT program that i am debating about. i have been in email dialogue with Dr. Paul Wojda for a few months now. He is trying to design a joint program of catholic studies and theology(through St. Paul seminary school of divinity) thats cool its the same place as you.

I know Dr. Joey is trying to get into the catholic studies program right now. He is finishing his last semister of school for his undergrad. I still have a year or so left, but Im in, I know too many names. hehe

[track2004]

Regular colleges. Typically they have better overall programs (though if you want a theology degree by all means, a Catholic college). They are also cheaper (well public ones anyway). They also prepare a kid for what the real world is like. Catholics don't live in a little bubble, we have to "live in the world but not be of it".

[Colleen]

[quote name='track2004' date='Dec 21 2005, 11:31 AM']Regular colleges.  Typically they have better overall programs (though if you want a theology degree by all means, a Catholic college).  They are also cheaper (well public ones anyway).  They also prepare a kid for what the real world is like.  Catholics don't live in a little bubble, we have to "live in the world but not be of it".
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It's funny you say that, because from my experience, most people I know who attend Catholic colleges don't live in a bubble. Rather, their experiences (both academic and social) at their college prepares them for the real world. They are well aware of what the real world is like!!

And yet at my secular college, I have met so many people (students and professors) who seem to live on their own little respective planets. I'm not saying all, but a lot.

And actually, Catholic schools tend to have more rigorous curricula (hey, even the Jesuit colleges are tough!) and those schools tend to be more prestigious than public ones. . . . Also, depending on scholarships, financial aid, and years of programs, a private school can end up costing the same or less than a public school.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 20 2005, 08:43 PM']So do you think it better to go to a college where there is a lot of liberal heterodox teaching?

This only really seems to work for people who go in already very strong in their faith.  If you look at the overwhelming statistics of those who lose their faith after attending liberal "Catholic" colleges . . .
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Well, I suppose my experience is at odds with those statistics. I didn't lose my faith at a liberal heterodox college, I gained faith. I came to college a militant, anti-Catholic, atheist Planned Parenthood spy. I chose Goucher precisely because of its liberal climate. But immersed in this environment, I had a profound conversion experience as I realized how stupid my anti-Catholic beliefs were and how true Catholicism was, because I saw some strong Catholics living out their faith in an authentic way in a campus that went against everything the Church stood for. I guess you could say the odds were against me, but that was where I came to faith. I know other people at my college that converted to Catholicism there as well, and I think that the hostile learning environment has helped us all build character.

As I just finished school, I can see how God used an anti-Catholic ultra-secular college to draw me closer to HIm. It was His Plan and I think that anyone coming out of that college MORE Catholic than they were before is a testimony to the power of God.

That being said, would I recommend my alma mater as a place to help someone grow in their faith? No. If I had high-school-aged children, I'd probably encourage them to go to a strong Catholic college like St. Thomas Aquinas, FUS, Christendom or Catholic University.

In my experience, strong Catholic colleges and strong secular colleges can both produce strong Catholics. But there are also "phishy" colleges that call themselves Catholic but the professors want women priests, and the students want gay dorms. I wouldn't send my kids there.

If i were to go to grad school (when pigs fly! : ) I'd probably choose a strong Catholic college, as I feel I've been tested enough.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='track2004' date='Dec 21 2005, 11:31 AM']Regular colleges.  Typically they have better overall programs (though if you want a theology degree by all means, a Catholic college).  They are also cheaper (well public ones anyway).  They also prepare a kid for what the real world is like.  Catholics don't live in a little bubble, we have to "live in the world but not be of it".
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So far I have lived in another country for a few months, had some of the most difficult classes of anyone I know, and I'm not studying theology yet.

Mine is a Catholic college, but it is much more rigorous and less separated from the world than many of what I know.

However, we consider the UD bubble the real world anyways, according to Tolkien's description.

[Socrates]

[quote name='track2004' date='Dec 21 2005, 10:31 AM']Regular colleges.  Typically they have better overall programs (though if you want a theology degree by all means, a Catholic college).  They are also cheaper (well public ones anyway).  They also prepare a kid for what the real world is like.  Catholics don't live in a little bubble, we have to "live in the world but not be of it".
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Do you have any facts to back up this statement, or are you just making it out of ignorance and prejudice?

I attended [url="http://www.christendom.edu/index.html"]Christendom College[/url], and this very Catholic college had a demanding curriculum.

From the [url="http://www.christendom.edu/index.html"]Website[/url]:
[quote][[From 2002-2006, Christendom ranked first among all Catholic national liberal arts colleges in America in the category of "least debt incurred by its graduates" according to U.S. News & World Report's, "America's Best Colleges" magazine.

[i][b]Barron's Compact Guide to Colleges and Best Buys in College Education[/b][/i] defines Christendom as "very competitive" with a "demanding workload."
Christendom College was acknowledged by [i]The Princeton Review [/i]in the 2001 edition of [i][b]Time Magazine's [/b][/i]"The Best College for You."
[i][b]Peterson's Competitive Colleges (2000-2001[/b])[/i] placed Christendom in the top ten percent of colleges in the United States based on Freshmen SAT scores.
In the [b]ISI's [i]College Guide, Choosing the Right College[/i][/b], Christendom was listed as one of the top 110 schools in the U.S. Regarding the curriculum, Choosing writes,"Christendom's core goes far beyond what even many ‘good' liberal arts colleges require....With an all-encompassing vision of the liberal arts driving the curriculum, the faculty and administration are at pains to create an educational experience in which each course, major, and rule for community life contributes to an integrated Catholic worldview."
[b][i]Insight[/i][/b] magazine continually lists Christendom among the top 15 colleges in the U.S. which "teach the fullness of the Western academic traditions." In his feature article (August 2001) on the top colleges, Insight writer, Stephen Goode, took an in-depth look into Christendom's curriculum, as well as its political, moral, and religious atmosphere. Goode encapsulated Christendom's program by stating that the "college's firm stand upon what it believes and its vision of education as something that encompasses the whole of life are likely to inspire many concerned about American higher education."[/quote]
[url="http://www.christendom.edu/news/quickfacts.shtml#rankings"](Full webpage here)[/url]

Christendom was also listed among [url="http://www.christendom.edu/news/releases.shtml#conservative"]Top Ten Conservative Colleges in the US[/url] by young America's Institute.

To claim that strongly orthodox Catholic colleges are somehow educationally inferior to other schools is just an ignorant and biased statement.

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 21 2005, 11:49 AM']Well, I suppose my experience is at odds with those statistics.  I didn't lose my faith at a liberal heterodox college, I gained faith.  I came to college a militant, anti-Catholic, atheist Planned Parenthood spy.  I chose Goucher precisely because of its liberal climate.  But immersed in this environment, I had a profound conversion experience as I realized how stupid my anti-Catholic beliefs were and how true Catholicism was, because I saw some strong Catholics living out their faith in an authentic way in a campus that went against everything the Church stood for.  I guess you could say the odds were against me, but that was where I came to faith.  I know other people at my college that converted to Catholicism there as well, and I think that the hostile learning environment has helped us all build character.

As I just finished school, I can see how God used an anti-Catholic ultra-secular college to draw me closer to HIm.  It was His Plan and I think that anyone coming out of that college MORE Catholic than they were before is a testimony to the power of God.

That being said, would I recommend my alma mater as a place to help someone grow in their faith?  No.  If I had high-school-aged children, I'd probably encourage them to go to a strong Catholic college like St. Thomas Aquinas, FUS, Christendom or Catholic University.

In my experience, strong Catholic colleges and strong secular colleges can both produce strong Catholics.  But there are also "phishy" colleges that call themselves Catholic but the professors want women priests, and the students want gay dorms.  I wouldn't send my kids there.

If i were to go to grad school (when pigs fly! : ) I'd probably choose a strong Catholic college, as I feel I've been tested enough.
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No one said nobody can grow into a strong Catholic at a secular or "liberal Catholic" school, but the the statistics do show that the majority of students who attend secularized, liberalized Catholic-in-name-only universities lose their faith.
The exceptions are more a testament to individual virtue and the grace of God than the schools themselves.

At Christendom, most graduates are stronger Catholics than when they went in, and continue to be strong Catholics for life. Most grads I have dealt with from other strongly Catholic schools seem to also have a strong faith.

(And overall, I think the "phishy" colleges have a much worse effect on people's faith than schools that are simply secular. I meant to include them in the "secular/secularized" category, but perhaps my poll was poorly worded.)

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 21 2005, 08:31 PM']No one said nobody can grow into a strong Catholic at a secular or "liberal Catholic" school, but the the statistics do show that the majority of students who attend secularized, liberalized Catholic-in-name-only universities lose their faith.
The exceptions are more a testament to individual virtue and the grace of God than the schools themselves.
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This is true. I would never said that I became a stronger Catholic because of Goucher... it was all by the grace of God, and not because of the school or my individual virtue (which I've got to work on). It's a tricky situation, coming to faith in Jesus and being thrust headfirst into the mission field. It's kind of a trial by fire, sink or swim. I didn't learn apologetics in a classroom like I would at an orthodox Catholic college, I learned it because my faith was constantly being attacked by pretty much everyone around me. That's how I became who I am today.

But I would never argue with the fact that Orthodox Catholic colleges make their students stronger in their faith. That's what they're there for! I wish I had some kind of formation in the Church and I'd want that for my children. I'd want to give them the precious gift of faith I recieved. At the same time, I also wouldn't want my children to keep the precious gift to themselves. I would want them to be missionaries, bringing the truth to people who need it most.

Secular schools need orthodox Catholics to preach the Gospel as missionaries. It's like going to an island where everyone's a member of some cannibalistic cult. It's not fun, it's a big sacrifice, and it's SCARY but someone's got to go there and tell them the Truth. Our campus ministry has been struggling because we are so few in number. Why? Because no right-minded Catholic really [i]wants[/i] to experience persecution. People at my college were so [i]tolerant[/i], except, toward people with conservative Catholic views. I've gotten bad grades because professors didn't agree with my ideas, I've gotten kicked out of departments because I'm pro-life. I don't want to make it sound like I'm some kind of martyr, but life isn't always a bowl of cherries.

Everyone has choices... I see going to a secular school as going to foreign lands to preach the Gospel to a people that don't necessarily want to hear it. At least, that's my experience anyay. And I see going to a Catholic school as going on a guided retreat, where you meditate on the Truth and develop a deeper love of God. Both are good choices to make and they are necessary for the good of the Church.

[track2004]

I wasn't saying that Catholic colleges don't have good programs. I have pleanty of friends at FUS, Christendom, etc that are in very demanding programs, but a student shouldn't go to a college just because it is Catholic. They should go because the program is good. A lot of the really good programs for various majors are not in Catholic colleges (ie IU and Business).

Kids in Catholic schools, at least the ones I know, are only friends with other Catholics and don't get to experience other religions and cultures like they could at some public or at least non-Catholic universities. I know that non-Catholics and foreign students go to Catholic schools, but the environment is different. At IU I've learned a lot about other faiths and cultures as well as strengthen my own faith. I've also gotten over a lot of the bigoted view points that living in Indiana tends to teach you. I work and learn with kids with radically different lives than I've had.

And scholarships yeah, but you have to get them in the first place which is kinda hard. Going to FUS (which was in my top 3 btw) would be 3x more expensive than IU and IU is hard on the family.

[photosynthesis]

People choose a college for a variety of reasons, not just academic programs. Most students go into college undecided about their major, and that was definitely my experience. I chose a college that would give me a good liberal arts education and the ability to study a wide array of subjects.

If I had known what I wanted to major in when I was 16 and choosing colleges, I might have looked at schools that specialized in journalism. But I didn't know and I'm glad I got a liberal arts degree.

[Socrates]

[quote name='track2004' date='Dec 22 2005, 01:31 AM']I wasn't saying that Catholic colleges don't have good programs.  I have pleanty of friends at FUS, Christendom, etc that are in very demanding programs, but a student shouldn't go to a college just because it is Catholic.  They should go because the program is good.  A lot of the really good programs for various majors are not in Catholic colleges (ie IU and Business).

Kids in Catholic schools, at least the ones I know, are only friends with other Catholics and don't get to experience other religions and cultures like they could at some public or at least non-Catholic universities.  I know that non-Catholics and foreign students go to Catholic schools, but the environment is different.  At IU I've learned a lot about other faiths and cultures as well as strengthen my own faith.  I've also gotten over a lot of the bigoted view points that living in Indiana tends to teach you.  I work and learn with kids with radically different lives than I've had.

And scholarships yeah, but you have to get them in the first place which is kinda hard.  Going to FUS (which was in my top 3 btw) would be 3x more expensive than IU and IU is hard on the family.
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Your statement, "a student shouldn't go to a college just because it is Catholic. They should go because the program is good" implies that the only purpose of college education is simple career training, and that the Catholic Faith is relatively unimportant.
This may be the current worldly thinking, but it is not what the Church has traditionally considered the highest purpose of education - which is to know the Truth.

A good Catholic liberal arts education helps one know and understand the Faith in a deeper way (and this does not just apply to Theology majors), as well as learn to think critically. This is valuable for all of life regardless of what career one chooses.

And your point about "experiencing other cultures and religions" is rather weak. The majority of graduates of CC and similar schools have to deal with people of other religions and cultures just as everyone else. It's not like no one has ever seen a non-Catholic before!
(I think many who make this particular objection, object really to the Catholic grad's firmness in his own beliefs. If one does not have "tolerance" and acceptance of immoral behavior, or exhibit moral and religious relativism, this is considered a sign of bigotry.)

A good Catholic education helps one become well-grounded in his own Faith before going out into an often hostile world. If a person doesn't know his own Faith well, how will he be able to defend it?
If someone begins college having a weak, or poorly grounded faith, then is exposed to a 4-year steady diet of anti-Catholic or heterodox professors and godless hedonistic student life, is it any wonder that he will lose his Faith?

While I am by no means saying that everyone must attend a Catholic college, or that no one can keep the faith in a secular school, but the statistics certainly favor a strong Catholic education.
Many fewer grads of strong orthodox Catholic colleges lose the faith.

[track2004]

You're right I do have a secular view of what college is about because I want to get paid for being a psychologist not a Catholic. Getting a job, a good job, that pays well isn't all bad. Sometimes you have to work the system to help other people. I'm not going to college just so later in life I can get paid (and well). I'm going so I can do what I think I'm supposed to be doing. I wouldn't have lasted in a small private Catholic college. It just doesn't work with who I am. Catholicism does, but I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and for most years after 6th grade I asked my parents if I could transfer. Catholic schools aren't for everyone, not even Catholic everyones.

[Church Punk]

Well I feel that that college you go to should be for your advancement in career or path of life chosen. Many Catholic colleges are great to build catholic values and knowledge. However if you don’t want to be/ or not called to be a scholar or philosopher, a lot of secular schools would be better.

For instance I’m sure St. Thomas Aquinas doesn’t have the greatest engineering programme, just like MIT probably doesn’t have the best religion and philosophy programmes.

However if you are in a secular school, I think it would be beneficial to keep up with your faith through the Church and perhaps do some additional courses.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='track2004' date='Dec 23 2005, 02:28 AM']You're right I do have a secular view of what college is about because I want to get paid for being a psychologist not a Catholic.  Getting a job, a good job, that pays well isn't all bad.  Sometimes you have to work the system to help other people.  I'm not going to college just so later in life I can get paid (and well).  I'm going so I can do what I think I'm supposed to be doing.  I wouldn't have lasted in a small private Catholic college.  It just doesn't work with who I am.  Catholicism does, but I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and for most years after 6th grade I asked my parents if I could transfer.  Catholic schools aren't for everyone, not even Catholic everyones.
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why not be paid for being a Catholic psychologist? There are a lot of great Catholic colleges and universities with good psychology programs. I'd say that any academic program is going to be better when it has the Light of Christ. I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing to go to college because you want a good job and a degree. Those aren't the reasons why I chose to go to college but they are the reasons I decided to stay in college when the going got tough.