Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[the protector]

I'd like to see Catholics who are pro-choice excommunicated.

If they have any sense, they will see it is detrimental to be manipulated by a religion that disregards thier personal convictions.

[Didacus]

[quote name='the protector' date='Jan 11 2006, 01:44 AM']I'd like to see Catholics who are pro-choice excommunicated.

[snip]
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[/quote]

I would much rather that all catholics come to realize two things;

1. The church does not impeech in any way on the freedom of choice

and

2. The reality of the murder that is commited with every abortion.

[KnightofChrist]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I have lead you wrong about some things of heresy I pray God you fogive me. I have been told in my writings with Bishop Gracida that I was wrong on most things. However Bishop Gracida also teaches in some cases support for abortion can indeed be heresy. Please I pray you all, read the letters in full below. And again I ask you forgive me and pray for me to The Lord our God.

Peace in Christ


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I am happy to respond to your email.

It seems to me that the keyword in your conversations with your friend is the word "support." What does he mean and what do you mean when you each use the word 'support."

There are many ways one can support abortion-on-demand. Not all of the ways would constitute heresy, either material heresy or formal heresy. A woman faced with a problem pregnancy who has an abortion would be committing a serious sin and can be said to be "supportion abortion" but it is not likely that she is thinking about the teaching of the magisterium when she has her abortion and so she is in no way guilty of heresy.

Formal heresy consists in the pertinacious denial or expressed doubts about any of the truths that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. So, the woman in the example above is not a heretic, but someone like Senator Ted Kennedy or Senator John Kerry who not only deny the truth of the magisterial teachings about the evil of abortion are without a doubt formal heretics.

The magisterial teaching about the evil of abortion is most clearly set forth in the encyclicals of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul the Great. The most recent clear teaching that denial of the evil of abortion is heresy is contained in the Doctrinal Note issued by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) with the express approval of Pope John Paul the Great.

You can find access to all these magisterial documents on the website: www.defide.com <http://www.defide.com>

I wish you success in trying to convert your obstinate friend to see that sometimes support for abortion can constitute heresy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"My prayer is that your love may more and more abound, both in understanding and wealth of experience, so that with a clear conscience and blameless conduct you may learn to value the things that really matter, up to the very day of Christ. It is my wish that you may be found rich in the harvest of justice which Jesus Christ has ripened in you, to the glory and praise of God."
- From the Letter of Saint Paul to the Phillipians, 1:10-11
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Blessings!

+Rene Henry Gracida
Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi
Abyssus Abyssum Invocat


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Bishop Gracida,

I am most happy to receive a response from you personally. I hope I do not over stepped in asking follow up questions.

Your Grace what do you mean by "problem pregnancy"?

True "support" is one of the keywords in my conversations with my friend, however I also have said that a woman whom aborts her child(ren) (that would have no problem pregnancy) commits heresy, the abortionist that performs the abortion(s) commits heresy, those that teach abortion is ok commit heresy, those that believe there is nothing wrong with abortion commit heresy and lawmakers whom support abortion such as Senator Ted Kennedy commit heresy.

Please your Grace show me where I am wrong. I want only the wisdom to know what is right and what is wrong. I believe I in my conversations with my friend have lacked some wisdom allowing anger to take over, forgive me.

Lastly your Grace I have placed below this letter some of the statements of my friend, he is a very educated man he has degrees in theology, yet I believe he is somehow flawed in some of his opinions, could you help me in how? Please.

Peace in Christ, God save the Unborn.


"I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor."


"However, you are calling for excommunication for those who simply support abortion laws. That is not so. That is why they are only guilty of incredulity."

"Show me where Canon Law calls pro-choice politicians heretics. I would like the Canon please. It is not there. I do have it straight. I don't pretend to be more than a priest, but my education may be better, then again, it may be worse. But because one is a priest doesn't make him infallible nor does it make him more qualified than me. We hold the same degrees. I am just as qualified as a priest to speak on this issue. I am just not as well known as some."


"Again, to call one who supports abortion a heretic is an incorrect view of the terminology. Bishop Bruskewitz didn't excommunicate for heresy, but because the actions were outside the scope of morality. That was the sin."


"In case Evangelium Vitae wasn't enough, here are some further sources. I don't think that you'll find any condemnation as heresy in any of these either. Veritatis Splendor, Ecclesia in America, Mulieris Dignitatem, Familiaris Consortio, Gaudium et Spes, and Dignitatis Humanae. These are the major moral documents of the last 30 years, plus the Vatican II Documents that support them. There are more documents that we can turn to, but I think that you'll see that all of these speak to the PROPER dignity of the human person.

Good Luck, the Church's position is clearly stated throughout these documents, various letters (one of which I posted) and theological works. Abortion is a MORTAL SIN against the dignity of the unborn human person. It is not a heresy."


(comments on your letter "12 steps for Bishops")

"Interesting proposition by Bishop Gracida, but has it been ratified by Rome? It has not. Notice that the language is not one of confirmation, but of proposition.

I daresay that the opinion of one bishop is not authoritative enough to change the overall view of the Magisterium.

At this point, that is still in the realm of opinion and not of accepted thought by the Church at large.

I am still waiting for tangible proof that your position is supported by the Magisterium."

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[color="red"]See my responses below in RED:[/color]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"My prayer is that your love may more and more abound, both in understanding and wealth of experience, so that with a clear conscience and blameless conduct you may learn to value the things that really matter, up to the very day of Christ. It is my wish that you may be found rich in the harvest of justice which Jesus Christ has ripened in you, to the glory and praise of God."
- From the Letter of Saint Paul to the Phillipians, 1:10-11
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Blessings!

+Rene Henry Gracida
Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi
Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

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Bishop Gracida,

I am most happy to receive a response from you personally. I hope I do not over stepped in asking follow up questions.

Your Grace what do you mean by "problem pregnancy"?

[color="red"]A typical problems pregnancy is the pregnancy of an unmarried woman. Increasingly in our society it is not considered to be a problem, but for some women it would be an unwanted and therefore a "problem pregnancy."[/color]

True "support" is one of the keywords in my conversations with my friend, however I also have said that a woman whom aborts her child(ren) (that would have no problem pregnancy) commits heresy, the abortionist that performs the abortion(s) commits heresy, those that teach abortion is ok commit heresy, those that believe there is nothing wrong with abortion commit heresy and lawmakers whom support abortion such as Senator Ted Kennedy commit heresy.

[color="red"]You are wrong. Reread my definition of heresy.[/color]

Please your Grace show me where I am wrong. I want only the wisdom to know what is right and what is wrong. I believe I in my conversations with my friend have lacked some wisdom allowing anger to take over, forgive me.

Lastly your Grace I have placed below this letter some of the statements of my friend, he is a very educated man he has degrees in theology, yet I believe he is somehow flawed in some of his opinions, could you help me in how? Please.

Peace in Christ, God save the Unborn.

"I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor."


[color="red"]Your friend is wrong. In the Doctrinal Note I referred to the Magisterium clearly states that the evil of abortion is an article of faith which must be with full interior assent.
[/color]

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Bishop Gracida,

Thank you for your help, I see now that I was wrong. If I had not asked you I would continue to be wrong. I will repent for this to my confessor. I will also do my best to make it up to my friend and the others I have mislead. I am deeply sorry if I offended you by my or quoting my friends statements. Forgive me.

Peace and Christ be with you forever!

[qfnol31]

Sounds like a very cool Bishop to be able to write him like that.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:52 PM']Sounds like a very cool Bishop to be able to write him like that. 
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Indeed!!!!! I did not think he himself would have repled to my letter! But he did.... WOW!

[Paphnutius]

I just wanted to commend you KnightofChrist for your apology and correction. It takes a big person to be able to do this as you have done. God speed.

[Tata126]

That's awesome!

[KnightofChrist]

Thank you Paphnutius, I can see now I was wrong in some ways well many and it fells good to say it!!!

I let anger blind me and I got to far away from the main point of my arguement. Which was supporters for abortion in the sence of Catholic Lawmakers like Ted Kennedy, and John Kerry do commit heresy. It also feels good to have the teaching of Bishop Gracida to lead me.

God Bless!

[qfnol31]

Welcome to Phatmass.

We're very happy to have you!

[Cam42]

Apology accepted.

[KnightofChrist]

Thank you Cam42, Please pray for me to The Lord our God and I will you.

I also pray that Bishop Gracida has given you the proof you needed from the Magisterium.

God Bless!

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 12 2006, 01:24 AM']Thank you Cam42, Please pray for me to The Lord our God and I will you.

I also pray that Bishop Gracida has given you the proof you needed from the Magisterium.

God Bless!
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Yes, to support my position. Thank you. The proof is overwhelming. Again, thanks for the apology.

[KnightofChrist]

"Formal heresy consists in the pertinacious denial or expressed doubts about any of the truths that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith... someone like Senator Ted Kennedy or Senator John Kerry who not only deny the truth of the magisterial teachings about the evil of abortion are without a doubt formal heretics.

The magisterial teaching about the evil of abortion is most clearly set forth in the encyclicals of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul the Great. The most recent clear teaching that denial of the evil of abortion is heresy is contained in the Doctrinal Note issued by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) with the express approval of Pope John Paul the Great.

You (knightofchrist) are wrong. Reread my definition of heresy.

Your (cam42) friend is wrong. In the Doctrinal Note I referred to the Magisterium clearly states that the evil of abortion is an article of faith which must be with full interior assent." - Bishop Gracida


Agreed the proof is overwhelming, thanks to the teaching of The Holy Catholic Church by her faithfull Bishop Gracida. Your Welcomed. Christ be with you.

[Didacus]

Ther is only strength in admitting you have been mistaken KoC.

Welcome to phatmass and God bless!

[Cam42]

I will respect the bishop's statement toward me regarding incredulity. However, I have never denied what he said about abortion. If I have would you please point to that for me?

Considering that you didn't present the good bishop all of what I have presented, only "certain quotes," his statement is correct.

However the totality of my statement is this:

[quote]I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor.

[color=red]The second mistake that you are making is that you are equating support with formal participation. They are most certainly not the same. One cannot be excommunicated unless he participates in a formal way by incurring an abortion. Support for abortion does not do that.

If you would have said that one who has had an abortion has incurred excommunication latae sententiae, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, even those I would be very careful in calling a heretic. [/color]

However, you are calling for excommunication for those who simply support abortion laws. That is not so. That is why they are only guilty of incredulity.[/quote]

I notice that you left the red part of the quote out of what you sent to Bishop Gracida. That changes the scope of the conversation.

And also notice that when you ask this:
[quote]True "support" is one of the keywords in my conversations with my friend, however I also have said that a woman whom aborts her child(ren) (that would have no problem pregnancy) commits heresy, the abortionist that performs the abortion(s) commits heresy, [b]those that teach abortion is ok commit heresy, those that believe there is nothing wrong with abortion commit heresy and lawmakers whom support abortion such as Senator Ted Kennedy commit heresy.[/b][/quote]

Gracida's response to you:
[quote][color=red]You are wrong. Reread my definition of heresy.[/color][/quote]

Notice he says that you are wrong.

I understand and accept what the bishop says about my statement, given the text he was provided. However, he is silent about the rest of my quotes. I see this to be acceptance of my position, for the rest of it.

Again, I thank you for apologizing. I have never denied the truth of the evil of abortion. I have affirmed that it is a mortal sin numerous times and that it cannot be justified.

God Bless you and I am glad you found the resolution that you sought.