Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Didacus]

If they are not heretics they at least place their souls in a lamentable state and they are to be pitied.

Does the effect of sin compound itself furher upon those of power and authority? I mean, does people of power and authority who commit the same sin as a commoner for say, see their own state of grace adversely afected to a greater degree than the commoner?

I would think that the additional weight of responsibility would add gravety to the sin towards people of power such that the sin would have greater adverse effects. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='856866' date='Jan 15 2006, 05:03 PM']hello! Louis IX, Ferdinand and Isabella, and Charles V are current rulers of France, Spain, and the Holy Roman Empire!!!!! And the Pope is head of the Papal States!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

TARDIS or slingshot around the sun???

[Resurrexi]

I think I was kidding when I typed that... I hope... lol. Anyway back to the original topic of this thread, I think it may be possible that pro-abortion ''Catholics'' are excommunicated. Canon Law says:

Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Which doesn't seem to include those who are pro-abortion in politics, but only a person who, obviously, procures an abortion.

I would also have to add that someone who supports abortion even though they think it is wrong would not be in error in either faith or morals, but if a person believed abortion to be moral, he would not be a heretic because it has not been solemnly defined that abortion is immoral but would simply be committing a mortal sin by not giving an assent of faith defined by the ordinary magisterium of the Church.

Edited December 31, 2007 by StThomasMore

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I can't vote. The only option I see is, "No - they need to stay where they can be taught better." By His own admission, Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. I'll bet those tax collectors and sinners that the Pharisees rebuked Him for knowing had some decidedly unChristian views on the way a person should live.

This doesn't mean that pro-abortion Catholics can't or shouldn't be excommunicated. (As far as I'm aware, the excommunication is automatic if you advise or procure an abortion.) But being excommunicated isn't the same as being 'kicked out'. From what I've read, people who are excommunicated are positively encouraged to attend Mass and to work towards reconcilation and reparation, although they mustn't receive Communion.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1440736' date='Dec 31 2007, 08:39 PM']I can't vote. The only option I see is, "No - they need to stay where they can be taught better." By His own admission, Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. I'll bet those tax collectors and sinners that the Pharisees rebuked Him for knowing had some decidedly unChristian views on the way a person should live.

This doesn't mean that pro-abortion Catholics can't or shouldn't be excommunicated. (As far as I'm aware, the excommunication is automatic if you advise or procure an abortion.) But being excommunicated isn't the same as being 'kicked out'. From what I've read, people who are excommunicated are positively encouraged to attend Mass and to work towards reconcilation and reparation, although they mustn't receive Communion.[/quote]
More bishops need to get firm with the excommunication thing.
And it needs to be made very clear that support for abortion and "pro-choice" politics has no place in the Church.

Sinners, including those who have had or proccured an abortion, should be brought back into the Church, and to reconciliation and reparation, but this can only be done when they first acknowledge their sin and repent of it.
The problem is not with repentant sinners in the Church, but with those who insist on calling themselves "Catholic" and staying in the Church, while working to undermine Catholic moral teaching on issues such as abortion and homosexuality.
Such people should indeed be "kicked out" of the Church until they sincerely repent and no longer promote evil within the Church. As long as they are active in the Church, they only spread confusion and dissent.
It is better that they stay outside the Church altogether, than stay and undermine the Faith from within.

Call me "Phariseeical," but there's a difference between, say, a whore who repents and comes to Christ for forgiveness, and one who hangs around the church to solicit her "services."

Edited January 1, 2008 by Socrates

[friendofJPII]

In order to be "heretic" one has to fully understand Church teaching and openly choose to dissent. Should pro-abortion clergy be "given the boot"...? definately! But should all pro-abortion/pro-contraception Catholics be kicked out...not necessarily...if they were we would be left with a very, very, small Church...since less than 7% of Catholics believe in all Church teachings. Some modern day Catholics have been poorly catechized (I was)...lets face it...unless you seek out the Truth yourself you are not going to hear it in the pew. Many of these people are good people who do not fully understand because the clergy is not doing their job. There is hope for everyone, and I really believe Jesus wants to convert the masses, rather than having us orthodox Catholics recluse to our own little bubble in hopes of developing a Catholic utopia someday.

[Dismas]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1440762' date='Dec 31 2007, 08:51 PM']Call me "Phariseeical," but there's a difference between, say, a whore who repents and comes to Christ for forgiveness, and one who hangs around the church to solicit her "services."[/quote]
St. Mary of Egypt, pray for us!

[Socrates]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1440949' date='Jan 1 2008, 01:48 PM']In order to be "heretic" one has to fully understand Church teaching and openly choose to dissent. Should pro-abortion clergy be "given the boot"...? definately! But should all pro-abortion/pro-contraception Catholics be kicked out...not necessarily...if they were we would be left with a very, very, small Church...since less than 7% of Catholics believe in all Church teachings. Some modern day Catholics have been poorly catechized (I was)...lets face it...unless you seek out the Truth yourself you are not going to hear it in the pew. Many of these people are good people who do not fully understand because the clergy is not doing their job. There is hope for everyone, and I really believe Jesus wants to convert the masses, rather than having us orthodox Catholics recluse to our own little bubble in hopes of developing a Catholic utopia someday.[/quote]
Yes, I'd definitely say more clergy should be doing their jobs regarding moral teaching.
This is not at all a problem in my parish (one of those "orthodox Catholic bubbles"), but I hear in many parishes, "controversial" issues such as abortion and contraception are not mentioned at all from the pulpit.
But "the masses" cannot be converted unless first Catholic moral truth is plainly and boldly taught.

My point regarded more those who actively and obstinately promote moral dissent in the Church - not just priests, but those in teaching positions (such as CCD, RCIA and parochial schools) as well.
It needs to be plainly laid out what Catholic teachings are, and those who publicly dissent should be stripped of their positions in the Church.

So long as people see being "pro-choice" as an acceptable Catholic option, this indicates there is a serious problem to be fixed.

And personally, I'd rather see a very small, but vibrantly orthodox Church, than a huge Church filled with heterodoxy, heresy, and confusion. This is not to say that we should retreat into a "bubble" and avoid evangelization, but rather that clearly teaching the truth should take first priority, rather than "filling pews" and not offending people.

[Deb]

I have to say that the options for the poll were ridiculous so I voted no. I can't determine if someone is a heretic.
Catholics who have had abortions or assisted someone to get an abortion who have realized their grave sin, confessed and been absolved should not be excommunicated. That would be stupid.
I am pro-life but, I don't vote for any politician based on their abortion stance because even if they say they are against abortion, they don't do a thing to stop it once they are elected. It is a thing they seem to use just to get elected. You get burned for thirty years, you kind of pick up on that.
Now, maybe everyone who proclaims themselves to be pro-choice should be excommunicated but, then should everyone who commits adultery, gets a divorce, or breaks any one of the ten commandments should too. Then, I guess we have no members of the Church.
I can't believe it but, I totally agree with the posts of Socrates on this issue.

[KnightofChrist]

I am happy to respond to your email.

It seems to me that the keyword in your conversations with your friend is the word "support." What does he mean and what do you mean when you each use the word 'support."

There are many ways one can support abortion-on-demand. Not all of the ways would constitute heresy, either material heresy or formal heresy. A woman faced with a problem pregnancy who has an abortion would be committing a serious sin and can be said to be "supportion abortion" but it is not likely that she is thinking about the teaching of the magisterium when she has her abortion and so she is in no way guilty of heresy.

Formal heresy consists in the pertinacious denial or expressed doubts about any of the truths that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. So, the woman in the example above is not a heretic, but someone like Senator Ted Kennedy or Senator John Kerry who not only deny the truth of the magisterial teachings about the evil of abortion are without a doubt formal heretics.

The magisterial teaching about the evil of abortion is most clearly set forth in the encyclicals of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul the Great. The most recent clear teaching that denial of the evil of abortion is heresy is contained in the Doctrinal Note issued by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) with the express approval of Pope John Paul the Great.

You can find access to all these magisterial documents on the website: www.defide.com <http://www.defide.com>

I wish you success in trying to convert your obstinate friend to see that sometimes support for abortion can constitute heresy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"My prayer is that your love may more and more abound, both in understanding and wealth of experience, so that with a clear conscience and blameless conduct you may learn to value the things that really matter, up to the very day of Christ. It is my wish that you may be found rich in the harvest of justice which Jesus Christ has ripened in you, to the glory and praise of God."
- From the Letter of Saint Paul to the Phillipians, 1:10-11
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++

Blessings!

+Rene Henry Gracida
Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi
Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

[XIX]

LOL this is the most loaded question I have ever seen.

Yes they are heretics.

I guess they should be kicked out--but they essentially have already excommunicated themselves. Excommunication means that you have placed yourself outside of the Catholic Church. It doesn't necessarily require or effect a decree from the Vatican.

[KnightofChrist]

Agreed not necessarily does such a thing require a Church decree or document. However heretics being heretics don't follow Church law, and dont say "I've excommunicated myself better not receive communion."

I am afraid they will continue to claim to be catholic, and continue to cause confusing within the Church.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='856587' date='Jan 15 2006, 09:45 AM']excommunicate them! then give them over to the authoroties to be burned at the stake![/quote]
oh, smores....

[Winchester]

I would hazard that supporting abortion shows a heretical understanding of the dignity of man.

[Spence06]

I like the above posters, didn't vote because the choices were...strange.

I think this problem in particular with contraceptives and homosexuality, is a huge area of disagreement with a overwhelming majority of Catholics and there is no easy way to take on these topics. All I could even begin to say is that we all must do our best to be charitable and God will guide the Church through these tough times.