Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Spence06' date='13 July 2009 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1247534540' post='1919152']
I like the above posters, didn't vote because the choices were...strange.

I think this problem in particular with contraceptives and homosexuality, is a huge area of disagreement with a overwhelming majority of Catholics and there is no easy way to take on these topics. All I could even begin to say is that we all must do our best to be charitable and God will guide the Church through these tough times.
[/quote]



Darn, I thought he made this post recently but now I see the 2009. I guess someone just voted again.

Edited July 10, 2010 by HisChildForever

[Vincent Vega]

Of all of the opinions that contradict Church teaching that a Catholic can have, I find being pro-"choice" the most revolting and vile.

[Jaime]

I think its time for Cam to return.

[Winchester]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 July 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1278788139' post='2140830']


Darn, I thought he made this post recently but now I see the 2009. I guess someone just voted again.
[/quote]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo[/media]

[MichaelFilo]

Can anyone tell me where the Church teaches it's pro-life teachings as a tenant of our faith?

Pro-"choice" catholics are closer to those who believe that divorce is acceptable or masturbation is alright, or contraception is not immoral. They are not heretics. They are wrong, but not heretics. The morality of the Catholic Faith is not a part of the beliefs which constitute the Catholic Faith. They are Catholic beliefs that stem from the Catholic Faith, but not in and of themselves heretical to the Faith.

[Hilde]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 05:40 AM' timestamp='1278816011' post='2141031']
Can anyone tell me where the Church teaches it's pro-life teachings as a tenant of our faith?

Pro-"choice" catholics are closer to those who believe that divorce is acceptable or masturbation is alright, or contraception is not immoral. They are not heretics. They are wrong, but not heretics. The morality of the Catholic Faith is not a part of the beliefs which constitute the Catholic Faith. They are Catholic beliefs that stem from the Catholic Faith, but not in and of themselves heretical to the Faith.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm"]Yes marriage is a doctrine.[/url]
The catholic church teaches against abortion it is immoral. A required teaching of faith and morals. It's a excommunicable offense. In both situations it would be heretical.

[Vincent Vega]

I was going to say...
If one is in any way an accessory to an abortion, he is excommunicated [i]latæ sententiæ[/i], which would make him a formal heretic. Yes?

[MichaelFilo]

Believing abortion is moral is not an excommunicable offense. Aiding, preforming, or encouraging an abortion is.

There is no article of faith that requires belief that human life begins with the foetus. Furthermore, there is none that requires that you believe abortion is wrong, only that you do not aid in it, preform it, or recommend it.


It is a gag order, not a tenant of faith. Not believing Christ is God, that is heresy. Not believing that abortion is immoral, that isn't.


Also, as a point of clarification USairways, excommunication does not make you a heretic. It puts you outside of the Church, and this is not necessarily for wrong belief.
For a clearer understanding of excommunication : 1 Cor 5:1-2 and 1 Cor 5:11. Excommunication, which can apply to heretics, does not necessitate it. In fact, the more common reason for excommunication is self inflicted, through mortal sin.

Also, as an aside, I said believing divorce was acceptable, not that marriage was not a sacrament. They are different things. The latter is defined dogmatically by the Church, the former is not.


After some reflection, I think the issue here is a problem with the differentiation between articles of faith, and practices which are immoral. Believing something opposed to an article of Faith is heretical. Believing something immoral is moral, however, is not heretical, rather it is poor judgement. Not every error in thinking is heresy.

Edited July 11, 2010 by MichaelFilo

[Hilde]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 07:05 AM' timestamp='1278821118' post='2141072']
Believing abortion is moral is not an excommunicable offense. Aiding, preforming, or encouraging an abortion is.

There is no article of faith that requires belief that human life begins with the foetus. Furthermore, there is none that requires that you believe abortion is wrong, only that you do not aid in it, preform it, or recommend it.


It is a gag order, not a tenant of faith. Not believing Christ is God, that is heresy. Not believing that abortion is immoral, that isn't.


Also, as a point of clarification USairways, excommunication does not make you a heretic. It puts you outside of the Church, and this is not necessarily for wrong belief.
For a clearer understanding of excommunication : 1 Cor 5:1-2 and 1 Cor 5:11. Excommunication, which can apply to heretics, does not necessitate it. In fact, the more common reason for excommunication is self inflicted, through mortal sin.
[/quote]If someone obstinately denies something professed by the church as truth they are committing heresy.

Abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

[quote]Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.[/quote]

Edited July 11, 2010 by Hilde

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Hilde' date='11 July 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1278822299' post='2141090']
If someone obstinately denies something professed by the church as truth they are committing heresy.

Abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)
[/quote]

The Catechism, while a sure guide, is has no authoritative power. A declaration in the Catechism does not amount to an article of Faith. Your quotations from the Catechism do not, unfortunately, amount to Catholic dogma.

The Church has always taught the evils of abortion, and even those who would deny a human being was in existence until some arbitrary period after conception, did not argue that abortion is moral. However, Catholics who believe that abortion is moral are in descrepency with a moral teaching of the Church, not a teaching of faith.

Here is a good definition :
St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas"

Let me correct myself from before. Someone who aids in an abortion, who promotes abortion, etc, is still not a heretic. Why? Because he has not corrupted an article of Faith. He is excommunicated because he has split himself from the Church by committing mortal sin, but that itself does not make him a heretic. The moral teachings of the Church can be rejected by anyone, in word or deed, without committing heresy. Schism, yes, but not heresy.

[Hilde]

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Hilde' date='11 July 2010 - 01:56 AM' timestamp='1278824202' post='2141105']
Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
[/quote]

I am not sure opposition to a moral teaching, such as opposition to the immorality of murder (in such dubious cases as murdering a murderer) constitutes heresy.

Let me make my case. The definition of heresy as given is :

[quote]“Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be[b] believed by divine and Catholic faith[/b][/quote] according to the Canon

[quote]
"All those things are to be [b]believed by divine and Catholic faith [/b]which are contained in the written or transmitted Word of God and which are proposed by the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, to be believed as having been divinely revealed." Therefore the objects of Catholic faith - which are called dogmas - necessarily are and always have been the unalterable norm both for faith and theological science. [/quote]

According to Mysterium Ecclesia

It seems to me that moral teachings are not dogmatic. In fact, any list of Church dogmas will fail to produce a single moral teaching. Why? Because they do not form an unalterable norm for BOTH faith and theological science. Unfortunatly, the wrongness of murder does not form much of anything for theological science or our Faith. Dogmas cannot be disputed. Moral teachings can be. Moral teachings are doctrinal. That means that they are not part of our faith, but are infallible. To be a good Catholic you must accept them. Murder is wrong, and a good Catholic must accept that. Rejection of it, however, does not make you a heretic. It makes you separated from the Church in belief, but does not make you a heretic because you are not denying something which is to be believed by both divine and Catholic faith. Natural law is never a product of divine revelation, and almost all our morality derives from it. Even "thou shall not murder" is not a divine pronouncement of the wrongness of killing, but rather, a command to not murder.

Do you see the difference? Therefore, heresy is not committed in rejecting a doctrinal belief that is not dogmatic. However, knowing the Church's teaching on morality BINDS us to follow them, regardless of our intellectual assent. Of course, because we believe that doctrines are often infallible it would be pure error to deny them, still, it is an error of folly, not heresy. One can deny that abortion is evil and still remain within Catholic teachings, however, in maintaining the position, they do not teach as the Church teaches and are wrong. Nonethless, even obstinate error in this era does not constitute heresy.

[Hilde]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1278828960' post='2141129']
I am not sure opposition to a moral teaching, such as opposition to the immorality of murder (in such dubious cases as murdering a murderer) constitutes heresy.

Let me make my case. The definition of heresy as given is :

according to the Canon



According to Mysterium Ecclesia

It seems to me that moral teachings are not dogmatic. In fact, any list of Church dogmas will fail to produce a single moral teaching. Why? Because they do not form an unalterable norm for BOTH faith and theological science. Unfortunatly, the wrongness of murder does not form much of anything for theological science or our Faith. Dogmas cannot be disputed. Moral teachings can be. Moral teachings are doctrinal. That means that they are not part of our faith, but are infallible. To be a good Catholic you must accept them. Murder is wrong, and a good Catholic must accept that. Rejection of it, however, does not make you a heretic. It makes you separated from the Church in belief, but does not make you a heretic because you are not denying something which is to be believed by both divine and Catholic faith. [/quote]

Why try to separate morals and dogma like that? You should read what you are quoting.
I don't see the word dogma mentioned. I see "some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" John Paul 2 said in evangelium vitae 57

"Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. "

sounds serious, no?

Now look back at what you quoted. The quote from Canon Law doesn't just speak of Dogma, but any truth which has been divinely revealed, and taught by Mother Church.Murder is a grave and moral sin. There should be no doubt of that as it is divinely revealed truth and taught by Holy Mother Church.Same goes for the belief that life does not begin at conception. It is divinely revealed and taught by the holy mother church that life begins at conception.

If you deny any of those you are denying " some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" and therefore it's heresy.

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1278828960' post='2141129']Natural law is never a product of divine revelation, and almost all our morality derives from it.[/quote]

Strikes me as untrue.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

The natural law is the rule of conduct which is prescribed to us by the Creator in the constitution of the nature with which He has endowed us.

According to St. Thomas, the natural law is "nothing else than the rational creature's participation in the eternal law"

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1278828960' post='2141129']Even "thou shall not murder" is not a divine pronouncement of the wrongness of killing, but rather, a command to not murder. [/quote]

Sacred Scripture divinely reveals the commandment and truth of God "Thou shalt not murder". It also reveals the truth that before God created us within the womb He knows us. Sacred Tradition has always condemned abortion and infanticide.(as stated in the CCC quotes i posted)


[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1278828960' post='2141129']

Do you see the difference? Therefore, heresy is not committed in rejecting a doctrinal belief that is not dogmatic. However, knowing the Church's teaching on morality BINDS us to follow them, regardless of our intellectual assent. Of course, because we believe that doctrines are often infallible it would be pure error to deny them, still, it is an error of folly, not heresy. One can deny that abortion is evil and still remain within Catholic teachings, however, in maintaining the position, they do not teach as the Church teaches and are wrong. Nonethless, even obstinate error in this era does not constitute heresy.
[/quote]
Read your quote. Denying or doubting the Catholic faith is heresy. It says all truths in the written or transmitted word of God. Those can be found in sacred tradition or sacred scripture. As well as any truth in a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

The quote says a truth believed to be divinely revealed. Both the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium have taught a truth believe to be divinely revealed that infanticide was a immoral forbidden sinful act. To reject that or doubt that truth is to deny a truth taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Hilde

[thessalonian]

YES! (whether material or formal God will decide). On to another thread. This one was easy.

[MichaelFilo]

The whole issue lies on the fact that you believe morality is dogmatic, which it is not. Dogma comes from ex cathedra statements, councils, etc. It does not come from the ordinary magisterium. Morality, including abortion, comes from the ordinary magisterium and as such is a doctrine, not a dogma. This is an important distinction to make. Both are binding on Catholics and both are infallible teachings. Dogma, a subset of doctrine, is what makes up our Faith, it is the list of things which we believe. They are often finely tuned points that we call mysteries. Doctrine, which includes dogma (but is not necessarily dogma,) are Catholic beliefs which are binding on Catholics and are beliefs which come from the Faith. These are not mysteries in the same way Dogma would be. In fact, there is little contemplative mystery about the error of murder. Breaking with dogmatic statements makes you a heretic. However, doctrinal statements do not carry the same weight.

I have to run off to work, but I'll come back tonight and kind of make my case. However, I beseech you to look at the wording of mysterium ecclessia and the Canon. The canon uses the definition of dogma. Natural law is not divinely revealed, but is given by God. That is to say, God does not need to tell us what is in natural law. Almost all morality comes from natural law.