Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]That's fine, though that is just you. Every person merits equal dignity no matter they are a baby or baby killer. We can keep individuals account for their actions, but our own demands us to love them.[/quote]
everyone does not merit equal dignity, that is a completely philosophically inproper statement. Merit is earned. Baby killers have earned nothing but punishment. What you may have ment to say as that everyone is equal in human dignity, THat is true. Human dignity oes nto require "understanding " though. Sometimes defending human dignaty requires a violent defense of that dignity.

People of then try to use Christ Command to do unto others as you would hae them do unto you to imply that we sould understand and forgive almost every act. Well I hope and pray to the Lord that if I was making a profession of killing babies, someone would have to common decency to kill me.



[quote]
Explain.[/quote]

I don't have time to get into it now, I'll write on this later.



[quote]Many others act the same, but that is because their desires are disordered by sin.[/quote] What are you talking about? Many disordered desire exist to be sure, but they do not lead to the death of the the innocent.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306855697' post='2248170']
everyone does not merit equal dignity, that is a completely philosophically inproper statement. Merit is earned. Baby killers have earned nothing but punishment. What you may have ment to say as that everyone is equal in human dignity, THat is true. Human dignity oes nto require "understanding " though. Sometimes defending human dignaty requires a violent defense of that dignity.

People of then try to use Christ Command to do unto others as you would hae them do unto you to imply that we sould understand and forgive almost every act. Well I hope and pray to the Lord that if I was making a profession of killing babies, someone would have to common decency to kill me.

[/quote]

Well maybe the word 'merit' was the correct word, but I am glad we can agree on the fact that all human persons have equal dignity. Now having said this statement, this means that not only the child that has been aborted, but the abortionist carries his own dignity as well. As Christians, that demands us to yes call out the sins of the abortionists who may very well repent (there are cases of this), and that is the sort that we have to encourage. Your attitude Don John, is maybe a few shades lighter then the crazy Christians that have hurt the Pro-Life cause then even Planned Parenthood could by [b]bombing[/b] clinics and contradicting the cause entirely.

And for the record, though I know this is obviously a passionate issue for you, no one gives a single person, judge&jury.

And I feel as if I am repeating slightly, but an abortionist has a world view distorted by sin, so he [b][i]won't[/i][/b] see what he is doing wrong, because he believes it is beneficial to the woman if not at the very least a neutral thing.


[quote]
I don't have time to get into it now, I'll write on this later.
[/quote]

Ok

[quote]
What are you talking about? Many disordered desire exist to be sure, but they do not lead to the death of the the innocent.
[/quote]

Um, what does cold-blooded murder entail? (not abortion but regular murder) That's a distorted desire, of selfish gains depending upon the situation that I can clarify.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Well maybe the word 'merit' was the correct word, but I am glad we can agree on the fact that all human persons have equal dignity. Now having said this statement, this means that not only the child that has been aborted, but the abortionist carries his own dignity as well. As Christians, that demands us to yes call out the sins of the abortionists who may very well repent (there are cases of this), and that is the sort that we have to encourage. Your attitude Don John, is maybe a few shades lighter then the crazy Christians that have hurt the Pro-Life cause then even Planned Parenthood could by [b]bombing[/b] clinics and contradicting the cause entirely.[/quote]

No thats not what I said, all human persons are equal in HUMAN dignity, certainly some persons are of much greater dignity in other ways. My attitude is not any lighter than those who have bombed clinics. While particular individuals mental state might be debatable the act itself is not objectionable at all. Paul Hill is a hero, not a mad man. I find the attitude that everyone is entitled to defence except the unborn tobe the most hypocrytical and disgusting of positions. What hurts the prolife cause is the cowardice of its members, if 10% of the movement was as commited as Paul Hill legaized abortion would be over in a week. Unless you are a pacifist entirely and without exception then the idea that violence in defence of the helpless who cannot defend themselves is morally objectionable[i] is [/i] the hypocritical position.

[quote]
And for the record, though I know this is obviously a passionate issue for you, no one gives a single person, judge&jury.[/quote] I don't understand what your saying here... You mean no one is entitled to be judge and jury? I agree, but everyone is entitled, an perhaps obliged to protectthose who cannot protect themselves.
[quote]
And I feel as if I am repeating slightly, but an abortionist has a world view distorted by sin, so he [b][i]won't[/i][/b] see what he is doing wrong, because he believes it is beneficial to the woman if not at the very least a neutral thing.
[/quote]
Bull.

The Law of God is writte on every mans heart.

If they didn't know it was wrong they wouldn't hide behind other terms for it, they would say outright that they were proabortion instead they hide behind euphamisms. No one uses euphamisms for doing things they think are good.

Cancer doctors don't say they are excising unwanted tissue, they say they are removing cancer.

Willful ignorance is no defence for murder.







U[quote]m, what does cold-blooded murder entail? (not abortion but regular murder) That's a distorted desire, of selfish gains depending upon the situation that I can clarify.[/quote] I have no problem using force to prevent those murders either.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306881702' post='2248387']
No thats not what I said, all human persons are equal in HUMAN dignity, certainly some persons are of much greater dignity in other ways. My attitude is not any lighter than those who have bombed clinics. While particular individuals mental state might be debatable the act itself is not objectionable at all. Paul Hill is a hero, not a mad man. I find the attitude that everyone is entitled to defence except the unborn tobe the most hypocrytical and disgusting of positions. What hurts the prolife cause is the cowardice of its members, if 10% of the movement was as commited as Paul Hill legaized abortion would be over in a week. Unless you are a pacifist entirely and without exception then the idea that violence in defence of the helpless who cannot defend themselves is morally objectionable[i] is [/i] the hypocritical position.

I don't understand what your saying here... You mean no one is entitled to be judge and jury? I agree, but everyone is entitled, an perhaps obliged to protectthose who cannot protect themselves.

Bull.

The Law of God is writte on every mans heart.

If they didn't know it was wrong they wouldn't hide behind other terms for it, they would say outright that they were proabortion instead they hide behind euphamisms. No one uses euphamisms for doing things they think are good.

Cancer doctors don't say they are excising unwanted tissue, they say they are removing cancer.

Willful ignorance is no defence for murder.







U I have no problem using force to prevent those murders either.
[/quote]

Apparently, I'm not exactly in a discussion here, to be heard. I understand you completely Don John, but I'm sorry I don't share your zeal.

And if you think this somehow makes me a horrible person or something then I am sorry again.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306885167' post='2248402']
Apparently, I'm not exactly in a discussion here, to be heard. I understand you completely Don John, but I'm sorry I don't share your zeal.

And if you think this somehow makes me a horrible person or something then I am sorry again.
[/quote]


We are in a discussion and I have heard what you said.

I am sorry you don't share my zeal as well


I don't think the refusal to use violence makes you a horrible person, I do not believe that violence is normally morally obligatory except for those charged with defence of the innocent.

But that doesn't mean that violence is necessarly wrong or even that it is not possiblly meritorious nor that its use is something to be ashamed of.


We have had this discussion many times here,and i may have jumped to the end becuase i have had it so many times.



But I ask you, if a man went into a preschool and was killing the children there, what would you call the man who went in and stopped him? Would you call him crazy? or would you call him a hero?

If the state sanctioned the killing of 3 year olds, defective or unwanted children could be killed at the whim of their parent, just take them down to the local center and they would be killed and disposed of? Would you go in front the center and kneel and say the rosary, and go home and feelyou had done your part? Or would you save them? Would it be worth jail or even death to stop it? What kind of people would keep walking if they heard the crys of those 3 year olds, wanting thier mother, not knowing why they were being killed? Would you be a mad man to intervene? Would you be mad to kill everyone working there, participating in the murder of the helpless?

We look at history and remember as heros those who died fighting odds they could not hope to defeat, we remember the 300 Spartans, horatius at the bridge, Texans at the Alamo, the 600 of the light brigade, we remember these as heroic men.

We Idealize the hero who protects the weak and the helpless, who stands nobly against all odds, knowing his death comes to him.

But those who fight to save the unborn, those who challenge the fury of the most powerful nation the world has ever seen, those who do what we all hope SOMEONE would do if these children being murdered were at our local school. Those men we dismiss as crazy, fanatics, lunatics, we council others that thier methods are counter productive, as if they had been tried, we do this while children are slaughtered by the thousand.


No, these are not mad men, they are simply men, while the rest of us, those of use who KNOW what is happening and hide from the consequences of our inaction by saying that we are loving our neighbor who has disordered desires, we , we are not worthy of the word.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Don John of Austria

[Papist]

[color="black"][font="Arial"][size="2"]I believe one must refuse to be corrected to commit heresy. A person who is ready and willing to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic. Believe it or not there are Catholic pro-choicers that do believe abortion is not contrary to their faith[obviously they are being taught incorrectly]. The ones who have personally met with their bishop and refuse to be corrected are bona fide heretics.[/size][/font][/color][color="black"][font="Arial"] [/font][/color]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]"Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. [u]Heresy [/u]is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism isthe refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" Catechism of the Catholic Church 2089[/size][/font]

Edited June 1, 2011 by Papist

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1306928470' post='2248629']
[color="black"][font="Arial"][size="2"]I believe one must refuse to be corrected to commit heresy. A person who is ready and willing to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic. Believe it or not there are Catholic pro-choicers that do believe abortion is not contrary to their faith[obviously they are being taught incorrectly]. The ones who have personally met with their bishop and refuse to be corrected are bona fide heretics.[/size][/font][/color][color="black"][font="Arial"] [/font][/color]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]"Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. [u]Heresy [/u]is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism isthe refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" Catechism of the Catholic Church 2089[/size][/font]
[/quote]


I think you are being overly generous. One fdoes not have to have had a perosn eeting withthe bishop to have been corrected, anyone who has heard it from the pulpit , read it in thier church bulletin etc has been corrected.

[Papist]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306950245' post='2248766']
I think you are being overly generous. One fdoes not have to have had a perosn eeting withthe bishop to have been corrected, anyone who has heard it from the pulpit , read it in thier church bulletin etc has been corrected.
[/quote]
Yes. I agree. But not submitting even after meeting with the bishop is undeniable.

[Don John of Austria]

Agreed

[Jaime]

I loved rereading this!! Good memories! And if I'm not wrong, this is thread is the first time of several times that KnightofChrist swore an oath to leave Phatmass and never return

[Nihil Obstat]

Maybe we should invite Cam around again.

Don't click this:
[spoiler][img]http://wpshrine.com/uploads/subb/wpshrine_Lucky_Star_91_1280x800.jpg[/img]
[spoiler]You knew darn well that was coming.[/spoiler][/spoiler]

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1136788655' post='850087']
Yes... I have sinned... I have sinned against you all... I have been far to forcefull in my comments. Because of my forcefullness no one believes me or understands me, and I have only myself to blame. I blame myself for you all not believe'n what is heresy, what man would believe a fool like me the way I've spoken. I hope Almighty God has mercy on my Soul. I tried to hard, let angry take over. I know with all my heart partaking in abortion if by support or the being in the act itself for the person is heresy, and that is Truth. But I have failed to prove it to you all, I have failed to prove The Truth. I wish I was wiser than I am... I wish I knew better ways of proving the Truth but I have failed, and have dishonnered myself... not because I am wrong but because I have gone the wrong way in proving the Truth... Cam I know I was very rude in asking for you real name... I do not know why you would not give it. It doesnt matter... I want you to know and I mean this the real reason I wanted it was so I could pray for you in my prays at night and all threw the day... but I shall still pray for you, and for everyone at phatmass.

I do weep for the souls I have lead away for Truth, because of my anger in trying to prove it. I weep more for the Unborn that will die because of those that support abortion [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/weep.gif[/img]

I can barely see threw my tears now... I resign as a phatmass member... may Almighty God have mercy on my soul.

God Bless you all, forgive me.
[mod]edit[/mod]
[/quote]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345103727' post='2468561']
I loved rereading this!! Good memories! And if I'm not wrong, this is thread is the first time of several times that KnightofChrist swore an oath to leave Phatmass and never return
[/quote]

i miss don john.

[Groo the Wanderer]

why jaime, why?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1345173842' post='2468967']
why jaime, why?
[/quote]

I believe to embarrass me before you all by reposting a post I most certainly regret. He has accomplished that goal. But the post, it is my words, my cross, words I must live with. I would however request this thread be closed. This is at least the third time in three years that Jaime has dug this thread out of the grave. Let it rest in peace and let old wounds heal without reopening them every year for three years.

God Bless