Teatime with Freud

[Tata126]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 5 2006, 10:01 PM']let me add that i do not believe the problem is all the man's in this situation. obviously if women are becoming more like men, there is a problem with women these days too. i would even venture to say that it is more the woman's fault that these things are happening than it is the man's. growing up people tell young girls that they can do anything the boys can do and there isnt a difference in the world between them except in physicality. women are the ones who made the push to be more like men and to take on more of their responsibilities. i would even go as far as saying that women leave most of the lasting impressions of what young girls should grow up to be. if the mother was strong and outgoing and believed that a woman had just as much right, or just as much obligation, to do what the man did, then i believe her children, most especially her daughters, would grow up the same way. the raising of young girls is out of whack too. women need to be taught from a young age what men are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be and do in relation to the man. there need to be women in the world who understand their roles and who might help these confused men find their place again. men only have as much control as they establish and if they choose not to establish it, the woman should give it to him. maybe given the responsibility the man will step up and take over.
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EXACTLY.

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 10:06 PM']Personally, I'm more concerned with how parents today (be it a single mother, single father, grandparent, two parent household, older sibling, gay couple) instills God-fearing, faith-filled  values and beliefs in that child and how they aid their him/her in forming a moral conscience.
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I agree, but part of the moral conscience is an understanding of what it means to be who you are, and that includes your gender. I don't think we're denying that people should be taught to love God...we're just saying that in addition to everything else that's important in raising children, children should be taught what it means to be the gender that they are. I mean, isn't that what moral formation is all about, being taught what it means to be who you are? If you consider morality to be something of a user's guide to the human person, telling you what is and isn't in conformity with the way we are created... and catechesis and moral values and societal roles are all essential to an understanding of who we are as God created us, and what our relationship to God and others is.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:16 PM'][Emphasis mine.] Hughey, I respectfully disagree. Every day I thank God that my parents--a mother and a father--instilled in me the beliefs that they did. They gave me the skills and confidence necessary to go out into the world and develop my own beliefs in light of personal experience and in light of my Christian faith. I am so thankful that my mother (and father) held so much faith in me from such a young age. I was told that I could do whatever I wanted to do... that the world was my oyster. They instilled in me respect, responsibility, and a desire to accomplish my wildest dreams. And it it with their continued support and prayers that I am were I am today.

I see a greater need in the world for men and women who see each other and images of God before their very own eyes. By our Christian baptism, we are given the authority and responsibility to bring forth the Kingdom of God. Pardon me, but I believe that respect and appreciation are of more importance in that mission than carefully outlining social boundaries and roles that men and women are to uphold.
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I thank God for knowing that I am not worthless. I was blessed to have many people in my life who told me I could do absolutely anything I wanted to do and that no one (and no thing) could stop me if I really worked for it. I gained whatever confidence in myself through them and their confidence in me. [i]However[/i], I have come to recognize that while I am of value and that I am worthy of many things, I do not necessarily need to conquer the world in order to have made a life for myself. I do not have to do everything that I could possibly do - including things that I do not even believe to be a woman's job - in order to have been successful in this lifetime. To me, to be successful is to raise a beautiful, holy, loving family of saints. To me, to be successful is to serve my husband and my children and my God in such a way that I can stand at the gates of Heaven and know I had done something to advance His plan on earth and to help others get to where I hope to stand. Never once did I say that I believed respect and appreciation to be of little consequence. I do believe that a greater emphasis should be put on that. However, I also believe that by putting more emphasis on the roles of the man and the woman that respect, and even more so, appreciation would come more easily to everyone. When women try to take over things that should be left for a man, it becomes easier to lose respect for what he does. In the same respect, when a man takes on a woman's responsibilities, it then would seem more difficult for him to respect what she does. When we return to the natural way of life, then we will see God's plan for our sex and then we will more fully appreciate the opposite. I am not calling for a definite outline of the duties of a man and a woman, nor am I saying that respect and appreciation for one another should be thrown to the wayside. I am saying, rather, that when natural roles are restored, things will fall more easily into place. I am saying, rather, that when natural roles are restored, many of these problems will dissipate. I am planted firm in my belief that because of the extreme pushes for women to be men that we have created unnecessary problems and that a lack of appreciation and respect for each sex has been established.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:22 PM']I agree, but part of the moral conscience is an understanding of what it means to be who you are, and that includes your gender.  I don't think we're denying that people should be taught to love God...we're just saying that in addition to everything else that's important in raising children, children should be taught what it means to be the gender that they are.  I mean, isn't that what moral formation is all about, being taught what it means to be who you are?  If you consider morality to be something of a user's guide to the human person, telling you what is and isn't in conformity with the way we are created... and catechesis and moral values and societal roles are all essential to an understanding of who we are as God created us, and what our relationship to God and others is.
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[b]precisely.[/b]

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 5 2006, 09:28 PM']I thank God for knowing that I am not worthless. I was blessed to have many people in my life who told me I could do absolutely anything I wanted to do and that no one (and no thing) could stop me if I really worked for it. I gained whatever confidence in myself through them and their confidence in me. [i]However[/i], I have come to recognize that while I am of value and that I am worthy of many things, I do not necessarily need to conquer the world in order to have made a life for myself. I do not have to do everything that I could possibly do - including things that I do not even believe to be a woman's job - in order to have been successful in this lifetime. To me, to be successful is to raise a beautiful, holy, loving family of saints. To me, to be successful is to serve my husband and my children and my God in such a way that I can stand at the gates of Heaven and know I had done something to advance His plan on earth and to help others get to where I hope to stand. Never once did I say that I believed respect and appreciation to be of little consequence. I do believe that a greater emphasis should be put on that. However, I also believe that by putting more emphasis on the roles of the man and the woman that respect, and even more so, appreciation would come more easily to everyone. When women try to take over things that should be left for a man, it becomes easier to lose respect for what he does. In the same respect, when a man takes on a woman's responsibilities, it then would seem more difficult for him to respect what she does. When we return to the natural way of life, then we will see God's plan for our sex and then we will more fully appreciate the opposite. I am not calling for a definite outline of the duties of a man and a woman, nor am I saying that respect and appreciation for one another should be thrown to the wayside. I am saying, rather, that when natural roles are restored, things will fall more easily into place. I am saying, rather, that when natural roles are restored, many of these problems will dissipate. I am planted firm in my belief that because of the extreme pushes for women to be men that we have created unnecessary problems and that a lack of appreciation and respect for each sex has been established.
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Wow. That was good.

[shortnun]

[quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:22 PM']I agree, but part of the moral conscience is an understanding of what it means to be who you are, and that includes your gender.  I don't think we're denying that people should be taught to love God...we're just saying that in addition to everything else that's important in raising children, children should be taught what it means to be the gender that they are.  I mean, isn't that what moral formation is all about, being taught what it means to be who you are?  If you consider morality to be something of a user's guide to the human person, telling you what is and isn't in conformity with the way we are created... and catechesis and moral values and societal roles are all essential to an understanding of who we are as God created us, and what our relationship to God and others is.
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Sex is a biological determinate (provided there are no genetic abnormalities). Gender is a social construct. Neither gender, nor sex, are the sole determinates for who a person is or is not. That I hope we can agree on. But I do agree with you, Tata, that our moral conscience (when it is growing and developing well) is inherently tied to our catechetics and to our society. Our relationship with God and others is based partialy, though not entirely, on societal norms. But we must also reconcile and seek value from the world we live in after reflecting on Christian tradition.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Sex determines gender...gender roles are to an extent socially determined, but they are fundamentally mandated and set forth by God.

[franciscanheart]

what do you do when society warps the roles of each gender to the point of being unrecognizable - or rather, indistinguishable from each other?

[Tata126]

But there still are inherent societal differences (in the sense that they are differences that manifest themselves in society) between sexes, so there can't be quite the distinction between gender and sex that you'd like to make. Women are made to be nurturers, and men are made to be protectors. My roommie's a psychology major, and she's told me about all sorts of studies in which these gender differences manifest themselves with young children, even as young as 6 months old. So I think gender is not just an artificially norm defined by society. But of course, it's not the sole determinate; otherwise all men would be the same, and so would all women.

So I think we agree; gender roles aren't the only or most important thing, but they're still important.

[shortnun]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:28 PM']I thank God for knowing that I am not worthless. I was blessed to have many people in my life who told me I could do absolutely anything I wanted to do and that no one (and no thing) could stop me if I really worked for it. I gained whatever confidence in myself through them and their confidence in me. [i]However[/i], I have come to recognize that while I am of value and that I am worthy of many things, I do not necessarily need to conquer the world in order to have made a life for myself. I do not have to do everything that I could possibly do - including things that I do not even believe to be a woman's job - in order to have been successful in this lifetime. To me, to be successful is to raise a beautiful, holy, loving family of saints. To me, to be successful is to serve my husband and my children and my God in such a way that I can stand at the gates of Heaven and know I had done something to advance His plan on earth and to help others get to where I hope to stand. Never once did I say that I believed respect and appreciation to be of little consequence. I do believe that a greater emphasis should be put on that. However, I also believe that by putting more emphasis on the roles of the man and the woman that respect, and even more so, appreciation would come more easily to everyone.
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Thank you for your clarification and elaboration. It is indeed a challenge for parents and caregivers to instill in their children a drive for success, while at the same time helping them realized that success does not come from "conquering the world." I did not mean to imply that you held an unhealthy appreciation for a greater need for respect and appreciation.

[quote]When women try to take over things that should be left for a man, it becomes easier to lose respect for what he does. In the same respect, when a man takes on a woman's responsibilities, it then would seem more difficult for him to respect what she does.[/quote]
I do not agree. I certainly see your point as one which is valid. I do not however believe that the success or failure of a culture, or the bringing about of the Kingdom of God, will suffer so drastically simply as a result of a blurred line between the roles that men hold and that women hold.

[quote] I am not calling for a definite outline of the duties of a man and a woman, nor am I saying that respect and appreciation for one another should be thrown to the wayside.[/quote]
This much we really do agree on 100%. Praise the Lord.

[quote] When we return to the natural way of life, then we will see God's plan for our sex and then we will more fully appreciate the opposite.... I am saying, rather, that when natural roles are restored, things will fall more easily into place. I am saying, rather, that when natural roles are restored, many of these problems will dissipate. I am planted firm in my belief that because of the extreme pushes for women to be men that we have created unnecessary problems and that a lack of appreciation and respect for each sex has been established.[/quote]
As graced of an existence that we humans lead, I find it difficult to used phrases like "return to the natural way of life" and "when natural roles are restored." Human beings exist in a constant state of change. It is too unclear to me as to what we would be "returning" to. Yes, A lack of appreciation and respect for each sex has become abandoned. Yes, I do believe that the historic push "for women to be the men" plays a part in that abandonment. But we are at an [i]impasse[/i] here. The view you have so eloquently put forth is that of men and women as complementary sexes. My effort has been the opposite of your position... men and women as equal. I myself am trying to educate myself about the development and repercusions of both positions so as to better reach my own conclusions. I certainly don't have all the answers! Thankfully only God does. But I am conforted with conversations such as this that search for the Truth.

[Tata126]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 5 2006, 10:39 PM']what do you do when society warps the roles of each gender to the point of being unrecognizable - or rather, indistinguishable from each other?
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Isn't that what we'd all love to know? I guess all you can do is try to live your own life as a woman (or as a man if that happens to be your persuasion, though I know it's not hughey's) and hope to give example to others.

[shortnun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:37 PM']Sex determines gender...gender roles are to an extent socially determined, but they are fundamentally mandated and set forth by God.
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[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:39 PM']what do you do when society warps the roles of each gender to the point of being unrecognizable - or rather, indistinguishable from each other?
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[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:51 PM'][b]We are at an [i]impasse[/i] here. The view so eloquently put forth in this thread is that men and women are complementary sexes. My effort has been the opposite of your position... men and women as equal. I myself am trying to educate myself about the development and repercusions of both positions so as to better reach my own conclusions.  I certainly don't have all the answers! Thankfully only God does. But I am conforted with conversations such as this that search for the Truth.[/b]
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I do not deny that there are differences, biologically speaking, between men and women. That having been said, I still feel confident in arguing that men and woman can be different, yet equal, as opposed to complementary.

***bold added to make a clearer post, not to be snooty or snooby[/b]

Edited January 6, 2006 by shortnun

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:53 PM'](or as a man if that happens to be your persuasion, though I know it's not hughey's)[right][snapback]847629[/snapback][/right]
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How can you tell?










Oh. The sig. Right.

[Tata126]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 10:51 PM'] My effort has been the opposite of your position... men and women as equal.
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Equal of course, in dignity and human rights, but different. :-)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:55 PM'][b]
I do not deny that there are differences, biologically speaking, between men and women. That having been said, I still feel confident in arguing that men and woman can be different, yet equal, as opposed to complementary.

***bold added to make a clearer post, not to be snooty or snooby[/b]
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Men and women's differences are far more than biological. Psychological differences and spiritual differences are also clearly discernable.

They are complementary. Equal, but complementary.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:51 PM']Thank you for your clarification and elaboration. It is indeed a challenge for parents and caregivers to instill in their children a drive for success, while at the same time helping them realized that success does not come from "conquering the world." I did not mean to imply that you held an unhealthy appreciation for a greater need for respect and appreciation.[right][snapback]847627[/snapback][/right]
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Oh, I did not take it that way at all. I simply wanted to clarify that I too believed there should be more emphasis on respect and appreciation but that I felt it should be done in (and could perhaps more easily be done in) a different manner.

[quote]I do not agree. I certainly see your point as one which is valid. I do not however believe that the success or failure of a culture, or the bringing about of the Kingdom of God, will suffer so drastically simply as a result of a blurred line between the roles that men hold and that women hold.[right][snapback]847627[/snapback][/right]
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Let me first say that I believe in this instance, and please correct me if I'm wrong, we are talking about two different things. I was simply saying that appreciation suffers when we attempt to take on things that were not meant for us. Now to address what you have said I will say this: I do believe that our culture, or our nation, has been changed drastically due to the manipulation of roles in society and in the household. Blurred, to me, seems a bit weak. It is a weak word to use for what has really happened in our country. [Here I choose only to address our country as we are not exactly like any one country in the world and I dare not label or define those people whom I know little about.] Society several hundred years ago and society today are so drastically different it makes my head spin. I do understand the need for change and I will address that again in a moment but change does not need to mean, nor [i]does[/i] it mean, distortion or manipulation of things that are normal. [The word normal could be disputed here but again, I will address that in a moment.]

[quote]This much we really do agree on 100%. Praise the Lord.  [right][snapback]847627[/snapback][/right]
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I'm glad we agree.

[quote]As graced of an existence that we humans lead, I find it difficult to used phrases like "return to the natural way of life" and "when natural roles are restored." Human beings exist in a constant state of change. It is too unclear to me as to what we would be "returning" to. Yes, A lack of appreciation and respect for each sex has become abandoned. Yes, I do believe that the historic push "for women to be the men" plays a part in that abandonment.  But we are at an [i]impasse[/i] here. The view you have so eloquently put forth is that of men and women as complementary sexes. My effort has been the opposite of your position... men and women as equal. I myself am trying to educate myself about the development and repercusions of both positions so as to better reach my own conclusions.  I certainly don't have all the answers! Thankfully only God does. But I am conforted with conversations such as this that search for the Truth.
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I think that maybe we have not quite reached the imapasse you claim we have reached. I do respect that feeling and let me say that I too am comforted by such conversations. Instead of completely replying this time I am going to make an attempt at asking questions to first clarify that which I am not positive I understand. First, do you believe that there are predefined roles that men have based not only on what God has commanded them to do but also based on biological make-up which gives them the urges to do certain things (in this case I also believe to be in sync with God's plan)? Would you say the same for women? When you say "constant state of change", what do you mean? (I understand the phrase but I am not sure I understand it in the way that you mean. I too believe we are in a constant state of change but I believe we say that, again, with different meaning.) One last one.. Do you believe that men and women can be equal and complementary at the same time?

I hope that none of my questions has left me looking like a fool, and if they have I thank the Lord for showing me my pride (be it conscious or not). I am enjoying this conversation very much.

[franciscanheart]

bump for shortnun when she has time to get back on.

[Socrates]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 10:34 PM']Sex is a biological determinate (provided there are no genetic abnormalities). Gender is a social construct.  Neither gender, nor sex, are the sole determinates for who a person is or is not. That I hope we can agree on. But I do agree with you, Tata, that our moral conscience (when it is growing and developing well) is inherently tied to our catechetics and to our society. Our relationship with God and others is based partialy, though not entirely, on societal norms. But we must also reconcile and seek value from the world we live in after reflecting on Christian tradition.
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Words have gender. People have sex.

This "gender is a social construct" thing is a lot of liberal poo.

There are natural ways for men and women to behave.
Men should be men, and women should be women.

There are indeed natural roles for the two sexes, which can be found across all cultures.
Modern liberalism wants to do away with all "gender roles," to the great detriment of society.

[Socrates]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Jan 5 2006, 10:55 PM'][b]
That having been said, I still feel confident in arguing that men and woman can be different, yet equal, as opposed to complementary.
[/b]
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You do not think men and women should be complimentary?

"Complimentary" means having roles that help and fulfill one another.
The complimentary roles of man and woman are at the basis of the family and of society.

It is because of modern social movements that want to keep men and women from being complimentary that we have so much of our current problems in society.

[franciscanheart]

i think that is a good summary of what has been said.

[HomeTeamFamily]

everytime i see socrates' avatar, i think of winchester