Ecumenicism

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

hi,

a recent thread was on ecumenicism. I would like to discuss ecumenicism in a civilized way comparing the ecumenicism of today to the ecumenicism of yesteryear in order to find the truth. this not a debate more of a discussion.

ok

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 10 2006, 06:48 PM']no, true ecumenism is two religious groups coming to the table to talk out their differences in a respectful manner with the aim of coming to the truth.

Since the Church [i]is[/i] the Truth, true ecumenism will lead others to the Church, but those instances of personal conversion are posterior to true ecumenism itself
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this is what JeffCR07 says true ecumenicism is.

Does this involve praying with these people?

does it involve finding common ground?


God Bless,

Sam

[Laudate_Dominum]

Some reference material for good measure:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...egratio_en.html[/url]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...um-sint_en.html[/url]

[url="http://www.cin.org/jp960117.html"]http://www.cin.org/jp960117.html[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/jp960630.html"]http://www.cin.org/jp960630.html[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/jp2/jp970122.html"]http://www.cin.org/jp2/jp970122.html[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/jp960121.html"]http://www.cin.org/jp960121.html[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP950712.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP950712.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP970119.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP970119.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961207.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961207.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP950523.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP950523.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/JP2ARMEN.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/JP2ARMEN.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ESTRN.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ESTRN.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP28995.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP28995.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/cuba/council.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/cuba/council.htm[/url]

[catholicinsd]

Ecumenicism is the greatest thing ever! Brother Roger was a rockstar.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 11 2006, 09:22 AM']Ecumenicism is the greatest thing ever! Brother Roger was a rockstar.
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your point bieng...?

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 09:23 AM']your point bieng...?
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I just thought I'd put that.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

cool

Edited January 11, 2006 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Laudate_Dominum]

As far as my personally opinion goes, I believe oecumenism with the EO Churches is essential and Rome's duty. Ecumenism with the protestant ecclesial communities is another story. It seems like dangerous ground unless there are very clear boundaries. From what I know of the movement the boundaries are vague or "ambiguous" (to use a favourite term of the rad trads). I won't express my views beyond that. My only point is that there is a big difference between East/West oecumenism and ecumenism in the broader sense which includes protestant groups.

[thessalonian]

I highly recommend a reading of the following chapter in "The Spirit of Catholicism" by Karl Adam.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.HTM#10"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.HTM#10[/url]

This book was written in 1935 (very pre v II). It has the Nihil Obstad and Impratur so it is solid. I think it will clear up alot of misunderstanding on Church teaching about other religous bodies.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

just read it

not much about ecumencism more about Grace and EENS.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 09:13 AM']just read it

not much about ecumencism more about Grace and EENS.
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The topic is related. One cannot have a proper view of ecumneism without understanding the relationship of Christ's Church to other religous bodies and how we view them.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:30 PM']As far as my personally opinion goes, I believe oecumenism with the EO Churches is essential and Rome's duty. Ecumenism with the protestant ecclesial communities is another story. It seems like dangerous ground unless there are very clear boundaries. From what I know of the movement the boundaries are vague or "ambiguous" (to use a favourite term of the rad trads). I won't express my views beyond that. My only point is that there is a big difference between East/West oecumenism and ecumenism in the broader sense which includes protestant groups.
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[qfnol31]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 09:08 AM']this is what JeffCR07 says true ecumenicism is.

Does this involve praying with these people?

does it involve finding common ground?
God Bless,

Sam
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I pray with non-Catholics all the time...

When they come to Mass! That's how I look at it...as a way to bring them back, not to become one of them.

Pope Benedict said it really well in one of his books:

(Paraphrased!) Schism can only happen when a truth is no longer loved within the Church. The point of religious discussion is to find this truth and bring it back into the mainstream of the Church. (Think of this especially with regards to SSPX if you're looking for an example. Obviously today there is a lack of love and respect for the Liturgy.)

To finish, I have no problem going to an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy (I won't let it count as my Sunday obligation!) and I wouldn't mind going to a Jewish synagogue...but this isn't because I think theyr'e right in everything...rather, I think they have something to offer...I love for the Sacred.

[p0lar_bear]

EENS,

I have quite a bit to add to the conversation, but I'm a bit busy right now...it might be tomorrow or the day after.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

sure polar bear

[Paphnutius]

I am just curious EENS, is this in context to what you have said before about the Church not allowing Catholics to actively participate in public worship with non-Catholics?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yup

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 08:06 AM']hi,

a recent thread was on ecumenicism. I would like to discuss ecumenicism in a civilized way comparing the ecumenicism of today to the ecumenicism of yesteryear in order to find the truth. this not a debate more of a discussion.

ok
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I really don't think the question makes sense honestly. The truth about ecumenism? Ecumenism is a dialogue between Christian communities regarding the differences between them. It is also some sharing of what we hold in common. There has never been any infallible statements regarding ecumenism to my knowledge and so the "truth" about ecumenism is kind of a nonsensical question. Conversations between Catholics and non-catholics can and do go on. Catholics can pray with non-catholics. There are of course limits to this. We cannot pray prayers that deny the Catholic faith for instance. Can we hold services with Protestants? At some level I think that is possible but with much caution. They can come to our Masses but not partake of the Eucharist. There are rare exceptions to this. A priest in Germany was stripped of his duties for allowing protestants to participate in the Eucharist. But for instnace in the case of the coal minners last week I think a Catholic could have participated in a prayer service for them.

In the past it has been forbidden to attend a protestant service. Today there is more of an openness to this. One might call this a change but I would consider it more a matter of discipline. One should most certainly be cautious in this area. But that the Church forbid it in the past and allows it today does not mean there is a new "truth" about ecumenism. If the issue is hearing bad theology then we should not allow protestants to speak on Catholic message boards and participation in protestant message boards should be forbidden. It is not to my knowledge. There has to be religous dialogue between Catholics and all people. This is how the truth gets spread. One must always uphold the truth but one may also want to get an understanding of another groups beliefs and cultures primarily for the purpose of bringing them more fully in to the truth. That is the true purpose of ecumenism. There are truths that everyone holds because God's laws are implanted on all men's hearts and with Protestants, no group has completely rejected the traditions and so has a certain level of truth. Ecumenism can never end as long as there is division in Christianity. That is my point of view.

Edited January 11, 2006 by thessalonian

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church?

[rkwright]

what is the big problem with praying with protestants??

Example, if a group of protestants are praying to the exact same God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, yet I should say excuse me my Church says I can't pray to God with you, because even though we're praying, worshiping, the exact same (not an idea of the same, but the exact same, Jesus Christ) since you don't agree with everything the Church teaches.

I'm not saying they should recieve communion or any of the sacraments, but I live in an area where religion, mostly protestant, is an everyday fact of life. Can I not pray with my protestant friends when we bless our food? When they give thanks for everything they have that day? Prayer before our sporting events where we play alongside each other? Bible studies in our dorms, that are protestant led?