Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:51 AM']what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? [right][snapback]852919[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Did you mean the church as in bringing them to Mass, or the Church as in converting? Well for one if we pray with our seperated brethren we invoke Christ to work through us. Where two or three are gathered in His name He is there. Praying with them can expose them to the Truth and begin the conversion process somewhere inside of them. Remember that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed...Praying is an excellent way of sowing seeds that may bear fruit for later.
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:59 AM']what is the big problem with praying with protestants?? [/quote] I do not think that the Church has had a problem with private prayer as long as there was nothing offensive to the Church. The problem was with public worship or liturgies and the idea behind that was being exposed to false teachings. It was viewed as an unneccesary occasion of sin.
p0lar_bear Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 01:51 PM']what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? [right][snapback]852919[/snapback][/right] [/quote] OK, I so shouldn't be here right now, but I wanted to offer a quick response...The ecumenical movement isn't about praying with non-Catholics. If that is all that is happening, then it is not true ecumenism and there are serious problems. Praying with non-Catholics can be an important element in a broader ecumenical effort, but it is not the central feature of ecumenism. You need to be able to look beyond a single visible manifestation of the efforts if you are going to understand ecumenism.
Myles Domini Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 06:13 PM']....... [right][snapback]852946[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What does that mean?
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 P0lar bear said: [quote] You need to be able to look beyond a single visible manifestation of the efforts if you are going to understand ecumenism.[/quote] like what? that is what the ..... means
rkwright Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:00 AM']I do not think that the Church has had a problem with private prayer as long as there was nothing offensive to the Church. The problem was with public worship or liturgies and the idea behind that was being exposed to false teachings. It was viewed as an unneccesary occasion of sin. [right][snapback]852928[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you about liturgies.... but could you somewhat define 'public worship'? Going to a Christian concert? Prayer before a football game? Or the other extreme, a non-denominational service (theres a large group, maybe 10,000 or so that get together on tuesday nights at our basketball arena for a praise and worship style music, and a leader that reads some scripture and talks)? I'm personally not very comfortable with the last one... Half the problem is what is considered a protestant liturgy these days.
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:51 AM']what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? [right][snapback]852919[/snapback][/right] [/quote] A part of evangelization is recognizing what is true in others rather than picking at where they are in error or calling them damnable sinners going to hell until they submit to our cursings. Paul used this method of helping others to understand Catholicism in the Aeropogus in Acts with pagans. Most certainly we should employ it with Protestants who are Christian. Part of what we hold in common is prayer to the trinitarian God. In ecumenical efforts most certainly we should pray together for unity. God hears their prayers and he hears ours. Why shouldn't we be united in prayer at least.
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:16 PM']P0lar bear said: like what? that is what the ..... means [right][snapback]852950[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If I might be so bold as to speak for another, I believe that polarbear was meaning that true ecumenism is not simply coming together for prayer, but rather goes into discussions and dialogues. This is not to downplay the importance of prayer, but prayer is not exhaustive of ecumenism. Ecumenism involves open, honest, and mutually resepctful dialogue. It addresses the real issues of difference and similiarities. [quote]but could you somewhat define 'public worship'[/quote]I agree that it is difficult to define Protestant liturgy and worship because it is so radically different than ours. I do not think that it would be helpful to do a case by case review but I would understand public worship as like a Sunday service, or whichever day they meet. Concerts and what not are not inherently bad (one must still look out for lyrics) but if talks or sermons are involved I would be cautious. Personally I do not go to non-Catholic concerts or services. I may go to share groups and what not though.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 shouldn't we not go to their worship/ecumenical stuff, shouldn't they come to ours?
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:33 PM']shouldn't we not go to their worship/ecumenical stuff, shouldn't they come to ours? [right][snapback]852971[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Perhaps someone could me out here, but I have never understood ecumenicism as attending the other's liturgy or worship service.
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:33 PM']shouldn't we not go to their worship/ecumenical stuff, shouldn't they come to ours? [right][snapback]852971[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What I am talking about is mutual prayer perhaps at a service together that isn't neccessarily theirs or ours. Not that every Catholic should go to protestant services. However in the interest of encouraging mutual respect and dialogue I don't think it would always be bad to go to one service in order to show a certain amount of acceptance for what is good in what they do. We cannot turn our nose up at there services completely and then say, oh let's be friends and talk about our beliefs.
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:37 PM']Perhaps someone could me out here, but I have never understood ecumenicism as attending the other's liturgy or worship service. [right][snapback]852975[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Neither did I. Though there may be some value in that along the way in order to gain understanding. Paul was certainly present when the pagans were worshipping many God's in the Aeropogus. His understanding of what they were doing helped him to approach them with the truth.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 isn't that relegious indifferntism?
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:43 PM']isn't that relegious indifferntism? [right][snapback]852989[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Isn't what indifferentism? Recognizng the truth in what they believe? I thought that is where this would head and that is why I recommended the link to Karl Adam's work.
p0lar_bear Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 EENS, I promise I will give you much better responses later. My point was that praying together is not the definition of ecumenism. The central effort of ecumenism is dialogue and understanding. Praying together can help keep the focus on God and help promote good will, but it would not be in my short definition of what ecumenism is. eta: Attending each other's worship services would be lower on my list of things to include in the definition than praying together, which probably should be part of any ecumenical meeting....
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:43 PM']isn't that relegious indifferntism? [right][snapback]852989[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It is only indifferentism or pluralism if you say that everything they are doing is okay. That is not what ecumenicism does. Ecumenicism says that we have differences X, Y, and Z; similiarities A, B, and C so let us focus on and pray on A, B, and C and then discuss X, Y, and Z in a way that will minimize hostility towards one another. You are correct, the Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but that never means that we should approach others as though they are in total, obstinate error. Ecumenicism seeks to approach one another in a loving way. A good document to read on this is Dominus Jesus.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 I like how you explained that Paphnutius
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:48 PM']It is only indifferentism or pluralism if you say that everything they are doing is okay. That is not what ecumenicism does. Ecumenicism says that we have differences X, Y, and Z; similiarities A, B, and C so let us focus on and pray on A, B, and C and then discuss X, Y, and Z in a way that will minimize hostility towards one another. You are correct, the Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but that never means that we should approach others as though they are in total, obstinate error. Ecumenicism seeks to approach one another in a loving way. A good document to read on this is Dominus Jesus. [right][snapback]852995[/snapback][/right] [/quote] two thumbs up dude. Well said. Edited January 11, 2006 by thessalonian
p0lar_bear Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:48 PM']It is only indifferentism or pluralism if you say that everything they are doing is okay. That is not what ecumenicism does. Ecumenicism says that we have differences X, Y, and Z; similiarities A, B, and C so let us focus on and pray on A, B, and C and then discuss X, Y, and Z in a way that will minimize hostility towards one another. You are correct, the Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but that never means that we should approach others as though they are in total, obstinate error. Ecumenicism seeks to approach one another in a loving way. A good document to read on this is Dominus Jesus. [right][snapback]852995[/snapback][/right] [/quote]
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